[Event] Tour de PPA

[babse]

11 minutes ago, bleedToWin said:

At the end of the Neutral zone, B group was 30s behind us according to GPS data.
 

1. Why did B not have a car enforced Neutral, it's the elite ladies group.
2. Why is there not a bigger gap in front of whatever bunch is considered to be the first funride bunch and the last bunch to have a true neutral start?
3. Why did the Comms and riders of B group think it appropriate to speed past 15 stationary cars and motorobikes and 107 stopped A groupers at the fruit sellers 4-way.
4. Why did A-group have 107 starters when realistically only 50 max are there to race? In 2020 A-group had 58 starters, historically as low as 33. Has PPA lost their own playbook wrt keeping racing safe on open roads post Covid?
5. Why was B-group allowed to restart 40s behind A-group after their eventual stoppage?
6. Why do I feel like selling my road bike after so many road races these days? 😢

 

as much as i love racing bikes... this is getting ridicuous and absolutly not worth it especially when you feel like the okes in charge have the least clue on whats going on!

[FootballingCyclist]

14 hours ago, Jbr said:

We’re going to have 32 newbies in $ group at CTCT 🤣🤣

Yeah especially "that oke" who came 33rd but also 1st at the same time LOL...

[Jbr]

21 minutes ago, bleedToWin said:

At the end of the Neutral zone, B group was 30s behind us according to GPS data.
 

1. Why did B not have a car enforced Neutral, it's the elite ladies group.
2. Why is there not a bigger gap in front of whatever bunch is considered to be the first funride bunch and the last bunch to have a true neutral start?
3. Why did the Comms and riders of B group think it appropriate to speed past 15 stationary cars and motorobikes and 107 stopped A groupers at the fruit sellers 4-way.
4. Why did A-group have 107 starters when realistically only 50 max are there to race? In 2020 A-group had 58 starters, historically as low as 33. Has PPA lost their own playbook wrt keeping racing safe on open roads post Covid?
5. Why was B-group allowed to restart 40s behind A-group after their eventual stoppage?
6. Why do I feel like selling my road bike after so many road races these days? 😢

Sho, it really sounds like the races I took off my calendar were really the right ones not to race! I just lost interest and was a bit over road racing for now because of the riders « « tactics » » at winelands more than the organisers f-ups, I think i’d be so over road by now if I joined at 99er and that Tour de PPA 🥹🥹

[ChrisF]

17 minutes ago, Jbr said:

Sho, it really sounds like the races I took off my calendar were really the right ones not to race! I just lost interest and was a bit over road racing for now because of the riders « « tactics » » at winelands more than the organisers f-ups, I think i’d be so over road by now if I joined at 99er and that Tour de PPA 🥹🥹

 

Join a family member or friend for a relaxed ride from D or E onwards.

 

LEKKA at the back.

 

 

Toooo much grief at the front ...

 

 

 

 

Pity for the real racers ....

[bleedToWin]

8 minutes ago, ChrisF said:

Join a family member or friend for a relaxed ride from D or E onwards.

We might not be Alex Miller level strong, but riding in D is a very expensive, very early ride that we could just do from home for free...

[Bertil]

Based on what is being said …. It seems that over the last 40 years the people managing the riders are still complete amateurs. Sad to see that especially when you have a rider having put in massive hours of trainings spent a small fortune on kit, wants to better his Argus seeding and is blown out of the water by such amateur happenings!!!  No wonder road cycling in SA is in pieces. 

[ChrisF]

2 minutes ago, bleedToWin said:

We might not be Alex Miller level strong, but riding in D is a very expensive, very early ride that we could just do from home for free...

 

Which is exactly what I did yesterday .... 

 

Just dumb luck that my rain altered route finished along the same bit as PPA.

 

 

 

Sadly these events are supposed to provide partial road closures, and a comes with the expectation of a safer ride.  I feel a LOT safer out of these bunches !!

 

 

 

I have to wonder what "entry requirements" or "enforcement of rules" would be needed to get more safety into the front bunches ?

[Jbr]

12 minutes ago, ChrisF said:

Which is exactly what I did yesterday .... 

Just dumb luck that my rain altered route finished along the same bit as PPA.

Sadly these events are supposed to provide partial road closures, and a comes with the expectation of a safer ride.  I feel a LOT safer out of these bunches !!

I have to wonder what "entry requirements" or "enforcement of rules" would be needed to get more safety into the front bunches ?

Neutral out of town for all racing bunches (except if the roads are fully closed and if there's no speedbumps/dangerous road features etc)

DQ all the idiots that ride other side of the road instead of busting everyone's balls every race threatening to do it but never actually doing it

Properly seeded groups. Someone said earlier that everyone in A batch has the same level, I choked on my coffee reading this, it's not because everyone is able to follow on a windless flatish route that everyone is the same level, and in most cases level comes with a bit of racing experience/handling capability (not always the case of course, but would probably reduce the risk of crashes midpack), also I find a smaller bunch usually reduces a bit the negative racing but that's not really a safety concern.

Safe finish, a downhill off-camber turn just before a sprint was never a good idea, luckily I haven't seen one like this in the last 2 years. SA's finish would've been a bit dodge with the barriers in case of a bunch sprint, but the race was hard enough that it wouldn't be a problem.

Edited February 26 by Jbr

[DieselnDust]

1 hour ago, bleedToWin said:

At the end of the Neutral zone, B group was 30s behind us according to GPS data.
 

1. Why did B not have a car enforced Neutral, it's the elite ladies group.
2. Why is there not a bigger gap in front of whatever bunch is considered to be the first funride bunch and the last bunch to have a true neutral start?
3. Why did the Comms and riders of B group think it appropriate to speed past 15 stationary cars and motorobikes and 107 stopped A groupers at the fruit sellers 4-way.
4. Why did A-group have 107 starters when realistically only 50 max are there to race? In 2020 A-group had 58 starters, historically as low as 33. Has PPA lost their own playbook wrt keeping racing safe on open roads post Covid?
5. Why was B-group allowed to restart 40s behind A-group after their eventual stoppage?
6. Why do I feel like selling my road bike after so many road races these days? 😢

All valid points that need to be answered by the event organiser. 
sitting in my ivory tower I’m smug that I didn’t race to face all this pooh. 
99er didn’t have the crashing problem but we certainly provided some dress rehearsals for a perfect execution at TDPPA

[MongooseMan]

1 hour ago, babse said:

My lapped neutral zone. Nice meet and greet for the peloton 🥱

Jeepers...

[bleedToWin]

11 minutes ago, DieselnDust said:

99er didn’t have the crashing problem but we certainly provided some dress rehearsals for a perfect execution at TDPPA

The biggest frustration, eclipsing all others, is that organisers are not improving. On the contrary, we're heading in the wrong direction...

[Skubarra]

1 hour ago, bleedToWin said:

At the end of the Neutral zone, B group was 30s behind us according to GPS data.
 

1. Why did B not have a car enforced Neutral, it's the elite ladies group.
2. Why is there not a bigger gap in front of whatever bunch is considered to be the first funride bunch and the last bunch to have a true neutral start?
3. Why did the Comms and riders of B group think it appropriate to speed past 15 stationary cars and motorobikes and 107 stopped A groupers at the fruit sellers 4-way.
4. Why did A-group have 107 starters when realistically only 50 max are there to race? In 2020 A-group had 58 starters, historically as low as 33. Has PPA lost their own playbook wrt keeping racing safe on open roads post Covid?
5. Why was B-group allowed to restart 40s behind A-group after their eventual stoppage?
6. Why do I feel like selling my road bike after so many road races these days? 😢

Agree (with the benefit of hindsight) that the groups behind A should also have been neutralised, no argument there.

But that B bunch was still faster than A on the section after Vierlanden and catching up with A, no sympathy from me (as it is with B bunch/elite ladies/vets on any other day you are always aware that fast bunches are coming from behind and can potentially catch you if you don't work hard enough early on) - thats part of racing and you have to adapt on the day, no point moaning about it afterwards.

On your points 3 & 5 - because no one in a bunch will stop unless you are specifically told to stop by an official, with both crashes we only had a few seconds to process what happened in front of us. If you chose to stop you lose your bunch and your race is over, simple as that. With the second crash B bunch got split anyway because the front rides managed to negotiate the crash site quicker and opened up a gap on the rest, so the crash even spoiled the B bunch ride. Anyway, neither of the big crashes were the fault of B bunch so no point criticizing them.

 

[BuffsVintageBikes]

This race was my first experience racing a tandem with a long time cycling mate. This was our experience of this race.

There’s no nice way to say this, IMHO the officiating by PPA and CSA was a cluster &%$ of note. I've never experience such poor and irresponsibility decision making in any race I've ridden in the past 35yrs. They can hang their heads in shame... and go back and do their safety and commissaires courses over again because clearly they were sleeping through the last one.

Neutralizing A bunch through the suburbs and none of the other bunches was the first brainless decision. What did they expect was going to happen? Tandems caught A bunch halfway through the neighbourhood already. Okay no great train smash just yet because there were luckily only a few of us but a lot of the A's hooked the tandem towards Fisantekraal to try stay with the bunch so their race was influenced.

B then catches A at Fisantekraal (being driven by strong A riders that started in B) and because they had line of site on A when they hit Wellington road already due to the neutralization of A. The group doubles in size and the chaos begins. Near the airfield they apparently neutralize the race for the first time. I say apparently because we're we're just off the back and catch up to the bunch. There's no official standing there giving clear instructions of how to proceed, just cyclists standing around asking WTF is going on and cars everywhere.

Some riders start riding again, we don't know which group may ride or if we can ride with them because no one is giving instructions. Some of the other tandems rolled through so we decide to go for fear of them getting away.

At the 4 way stop, a marshal stops his bike in the middle of the 4 way and there's a massive crash. Thankfully we're still chasing at this point and miss the carnage. The whole bunch slows down and threads through the carnage not knowing if we should stop or not. But now we're in no-mans land and unsure of how to proceed. Do we go hard and risk getting neutralized again or do we sit up and wait and risk never catching the other tandems?

They then neutralize the race for a second time on the road toward Eendsaamheid and exactly the same thing happens due to no clear instructions, just plenty of very pissed off cyclists asking questions. This time 3 other tandems roll through with riders not waiting any longer but we decide to rather wait for instructions instead of riding in a constant state of confusion. None are forthcoming so the riders take it on themselves to start riding again. Front of B catches A again (as expected) and the group swells again. At the dip at Eendsaamheid there’s another huge crash. We’re now in chase mode again trying to catch the tandems that rolled through. We eventually pull two of them back but one has gotten away and hooked onto the back of A, never to be seen again. But our motivation is now low and our legs shattered from two big stop & start efforts and we’re all rather despondent with the whole situation. We catch a lot of riders who have had enough and are calling family to fetch them and some who have turned around and are riding back home. You cannot have a fair race when it's influenced so negatively.

We eventually sat up and then just rolled the rest of the race, turning it into a more tactical race for the remaining tandems rather than outright speed.

Once the initial chaos had passed we ended up enjoying the race but the poor decision making and officiating really put a huge damper on this race. IMHO they were clearly to blame for the carnage out there. I won't be riding another PPA race again until they get their act together.

[bleedToWin]

25 minutes ago, Skubarra said:

Agree (with the benefit of hindsight) that the groups behind A should also have been neutralised, no argument there.

But that B bunch was still faster than A on the section after Vierlanden and catching up with A, no sympathy from me (as it is with B bunch/elite ladies/vets on any other day you are always aware that fast bunches are coming from behind and can potentially catch you if you don't work hard enough early on) - thats part of racing and you have to adapt on the day, no point moaning about it afterwards.

On your points 3 & 5 - because no one in a bunch will stop unless you are specifically told to stop by an official, with both crashes we only had a few seconds to process what happened in front of us. If you chose to stop you lose your bunch and your race is over, simple as that. With the second crash B bunch got split anyway because the front rides managed to negotiate the crash site quicker and opened up a gap on the rest, so the crash even spoiled the B bunch ride. Anyway, neither of the big crashes were the fault of B bunch so no point criticizing them.

 

> because no one in a bunch will stop unless you are specifically told to stop by an official, with both crashes we only had a few seconds to process what happened in front of us.

I'll accept that and withdraw the "rider" part of my comment and leave all post crash poor decisions on the comms.

> But that B bunch was still faster than A on the section after Vierlanden and catching up with A, no sympathy from me.

Closing a 30s gap down to 20s in 11km with a singular focus of catching the rabbit, while the rabbit is oblivious to your presence is maybe worth a pat on the back, nothing more. I don't blame the riders in B for chasing, but you also can't expect the A-group to ride as if they are being chased. They are there to race (or at least half of them are) and should not have their race started with 100 riders 30s behind them. That's all on the organisers.

[bleedToWin]

4 minutes ago, bleedToWin said:

I'll accept that and withdraw the "rider" part of my comment and leave all post crash poor decisions on the comms.

Especially with @BuffsVintageBikes added perspective of the confusion. I was near the front of A for both crashes so knew what was going on, but riders should not be treated what he's reporting, especially with the safety consequences of it all.

[Skubarra]

 

7 minutes ago, BuffsVintageBikes said:

This race was my first experience racing a tandem with a long time cycling mate. This was our experience of this race.

 

There’s no nice way to say this, IMHO the officiating by PPA and CSA was a cluster &%$ of note. I've never experience such poor and irresponsibility decision making in any race I've ridden in the past 35yrs. They can hang their heads in shame... and go back and do their safety and commissaires courses over again because clearly they were sleeping through the last one.

 

Neutralizing A bunch through the suburbs and none of the other bunches was the first brainless decision. What did they expect was going to happen? Tandems caught A bunch halfway through the neighbourhood already. Okay no great train smash just yet because there were luckily only a few of us but a lot of the A's hooked the tandem towards Fisantekraal to try stay with the bunch so their race was influenced.

 

B then catches A at Fisantekraal (being driven by strong A riders that started in B) and because they had line of site on A when they hit Wellington road already due to the neutralization of A. The group doubles in size and the chaos begins. Near the airfield they apparently neutralize the race for the first time. I say apparently because we're we're just off the back and catch up to the bunch. There's no official standing there giving clear instructions of how to proceed, just cyclists standing around asking WTF is going on and cars everywhere.

 

Some riders start riding again, we don't know which group may ride or if we can ride with them because no one is giving instructions. Some of the other tandems rolled through so we decide to go for fear of them getting away.

 

At the 4 way stop, a marshal stops his bike in the middle of the 4 way and there's a massive crash. Thankfully we're still chasing at this point and miss the carnage. The whole bunch slows down and threads through the carnage not knowing if we should stop or not. But now we're in no-mans land and unsure of how to proceed. Do we go hard and risk getting neutralized again or do we sit up and wait and risk never catching the other tandems?

 

They then neutralize the race for a second time on the road toward Eendsaamheid and exactly the same thing happens due to no clear instructions, just plenty of very pissed off cyclists asking questions. This time 3 other tandems roll through with riders not waiting any longer but we decide to rather wait for instructions instead of riding in a constant state of confusion. None are forthcoming so the riders take it on themselves to start riding again. Front of B catches A again (as expected) and the group swells again. At the dip at Eendsaamheid there’s another huge crash. We’re now in chase mode again trying to catch the tandems that rolled through. We eventually pull two of them back but one has gotten away and hooked onto the back of A, never to be seen again. But our motivation is now low and our legs shattered from two big stop & start efforts and we’re all rather despondent with the whole situation. We catch a lot of riders who have had enough and are calling family to fetch them and some who have turned around and are riding back home. You cannot have a fair race when it's influenced so negatively.

 

We eventually sat up and then just rolled the rest of the race, turning it into a more tactical race for the remaining tandems rather than outright speed.

 

Once the initial chaos had passed we ended up enjoying the race but the poor decision making and officiating really put a huge damper on this race. IMHO they were clearly to blame for the carnage out there. I won't be riding another PPA race again until they get their act together.

 

I was in the front of B and my recollection differ from yours, both crashes A was ahead of us and B riders were not involved. There might have been B riders that got dropped initially that hooked onto A when A stopped after the 1st crash, but the main B bunch was not mixed up in A until after the 2nd crash