Around the pot: participants of the cancelled 2023 only get 20% discount for 2024

[olmec]

35 minutes ago, SSCC said:

They have expenses that they do not get back

Hey SSCC,

Thanks for the comment—I don't think it useful for this forum to reopen the earlier discussions, and so I'll summarise a couple of key points and we can then all move on:

1. Events are for-profit exercises and there is a philosophical question mark over making a profit off a cancelled event;
2. Race finances are not declared nor open, and in addition to no-refund there is a question over the payment of event suppliers (thereby increasing the profit and incentive to cancel the race);
3. The decision to cancel the race on Sunday further supports the claims of #2 above, as the route was totally ridable on the following day;
4. There is event and liability insurance that can cover the costs associated with cancelling a race, it would require the disclosure of the event finances to the underwriter which is at tension with the incentive to cancel the race;
5. In addition to my own attempts to contact the race organisers to hold them to the promise made to me at the race village, I am aware of several others who have attempted the same;
6. This is not a selfish imperative that I am pursuing—the race entry fees were probably a small fraction of the costs directly attributable to that weekend—what this is is an uncomfortable conversation where the intentions of the race organisers are objectively examined.

The risk we run is that race directors will begin to cancel races at the slightest hint of inclement weather because the perverse incentive to do so exists.  That they can "go home early" having made more profit than they would have if the race had gone ahead.  It is becoming more and more frequent and the race participants and the folks lining the pockets of these race directors. That can't be right.

Finally, because this is all about riding, I wish all of you doing the event the absolute best time.  I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did; that the kilometres are smooth and full of as much adventure as possible.

[Skubarra]

24 minutes ago, olmec said:

Hey SSCC,

Thanks for the comment—I don't think it useful for this forum to reopen the earlier discussions, and so I'll summarise a couple of key points and we can then all move on:

1. Events are for-profit exercises and there is a philosophical question mark over making a profit off a cancelled event;
2. Race finances are not declared nor open, and in addition to no-refund there is a question over the payment of event suppliers (thereby increasing the profit and incentive to cancel the race);
3. The decision to cancel the race on Sunday further supports the claims of #2 above, as the route was totally ridable on the following day;
4. There is event and liability insurance that can cover the costs associated with cancelling a race, it would require the disclosure of the event finances to the underwriter which is at tension with the incentive to cancel the race;
5. In addition to my own attempts to contact the race organisers to hold them to the promise made to me at the race village, I am aware of several others who have attempted the same;
6. This is not a selfish imperative that I am pursuing—the race entry fees were probably a small fraction of the costs directly attributable to that weekend—what this is is an uncomfortable conversation where the intentions of the race organisers are objectively examined.

The risk we run is that race directors will begin to cancel races at the slightest hint of inclement weather because the perverse incentive to do so exists.  That they can "go home early" having made more profit than they would have if the race had gone ahead.  It is becoming more and more frequent and the race participants and the folks lining the pockets of these race directors. That can't be right.

Finally, because this is all about riding, I wish all of you doing the event the absolute best time.  I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did; that the kilometres are smooth and full of as much adventure as possible.

Few things worth mentioning

As mentioned earlier on the thread - the call to cancel the race due to weather conditions will be made by a safety officer / disaster management, NOT the race director. So this risk that you imagine of organisers cancelling races on a whim is unfounded,

Not giving refunds where races are cancelled on the day due to extreme is common practice for cycle races in South Africa, one can debate whether its fair or not but it is certainly not standard. (Look for yourself, google the terms and conditions of other big name races in SA)

Liability insurance is required for all CSA sanctioned races and does not cover refunds.

Event insurance might but is expensive, not required by CSA and to the best of my knowledge not standard in South Africa for cycle races.

As has been explained to you a few times, most expenses related to the event are incurred in the run-up to the event not necessarily on the day. The organiser "score" almost nothing if the event is cancelled last minute - cancelling a race last minute is not the profitable scam you imagine it to be.

[Mamil]

In my view cancellation of an event is a risk we acknowledge and accept when entering and is shared equally by all who enter. 

The damage to the brand of a race because of cancelling is enormous and I don't think any organiser does that lightly. Any potential short term profit is surely offset by the reputational damage the cancellation causes. 

I didn't enter the ATP that was cancelled so I didn't lose out on my entry fee or benefit from the discount but if it's flooding again I will accept the loss and use or lose the accommodation I've booked.

Of course because I'm a bit light in the training department at the moment I might just breathe a sigh of relief and stopm at the spar for the red wine and cloves for that gluvine.

 

[olmec]

Not cycling, but for illustrative purposes, race postponement done well:

Quote

Dear Bastille Day Runner,
Due to severe weather forecast, we have decided to postpone the event for your safety. The new date is Sept 7, 2024. Your registration will transfer automatically. If you can't join then, you can defer to 2025 at no extra charge. Thank you for understanding.
Sincerely, Team Energy Events

1. RD made the call;
2. Postponement into good weather window;
3. Automatic transfer to new date; or
4. Free deferral to next year's event.

[MongooseMan]

Do you need us to enumerate the differences between a local trail race and a bike race that many people travel 3 hours to?

[betaboy]

Hi, I’m starting an Events Insurance Company, if anybody wants to get their refund back in a cancellation situation, we will fight for it on your behalf with a monthly subscription. Of course T and C’s apply;

-You however will need to pass a cycle examination which includes a VO 2 max -Own more than 1 bike that costs more than your first ever monthly salary

-Cycle at least 4000kms annually both on or off road

-Enter at least 8 events annually Which was cross border destination.

-Spent an excess of 5K for on entry fee in a 12 month window frame 23/2024.

🤪

[ChrisF]

2 minutes ago, betaboy said:

Hi, I’m starting an Events Insurance Company, if anybody wants to get their refund back in a cancellation situation, we will fight for it on your behalf with a monthly subscription. Of course T and C’s apply;

-You however will need to pass a cycle examination which includes a VO 2 max -Own more than 1 bike that costs more than your first ever monthly salary

-Cycle at least 4000kms annually both on or off road

-Enter at least 8 events annually Which was cross border destination.

-Spent an excess of 5K for on entry fee in a 12 month window frame 23/2024.

🤪

 

Wait ....

 

So you wont cover my kerk-bazaar fun ride entry ??

[betaboy]

10 minutes ago, ChrisF said:

 

Wait ....

 

So you wont cover my kerk-bazaar fun ride entry ??

👀🤔😂😂😂

[MORNE]

1 hour ago, betaboy said:

 

-Own more than 1 bike that costs more than your first ever monthly salary

-

Peasant!

They need to cost more than the first car you bought…at LEAST.
 

Together your bikes should be able to cover a 50% deposit for a house in an average middle class suburb.

👀

[Rowl]

2 hours ago, olmec said:

Not cycling, but for illustrative purposes, race postponement done well:

1. RD made the call;
2. Postponement into good weather window;
3. Automatic transfer to new date; or
4. Free deferral to next year's event.

I assume you didn't enter the 2023 Karoo to Coast...

Nothing stops you from going and doing the route on your own, most/if not all of it is open to the public. Get your SO to drive support if needed and build a positive memory.

As noted many times, the RD didn't call the race, disaster management did. As previously asked, what do you think is a fair percentage, surely it can't be more than 50%. Did you recover all your costs for the 2023 weekend, did Sasol refund you your fuel bill?

You win some, lose some.

[Mamil]

My first ever paycheck as a professional would not buy me one gp5000 tyre ... I slung pizzas for years before that and a weekend's work would not buy me an entry to a PPA funride. 

My first car (a second hand 82 corolla 1.3gl) was 6k ....

 

[Danger Dassie]

3 hours ago, olmec said:

Not cycling, but for illustrative purposes, race postponement done well:

1. RD made the call;
2. Postponement into good weather window;
3. Automatic transfer to new date; or
4. Free deferral to next year's event.

Thought you wanted to move on?  You were pointed out to a number of corrections to a lengthy post, in particular that overriding authority, emergency services made the call. 
 

And now you conflate it further with a comparison with completely different scenarios. It’s not useful to the forum or relevant.

[ChrisF]

30 minutes ago, Mamil said:

My first ever paycheck as a professional would not buy me one gp5000 tyre ... I slung pizzas for years before that and a weekend's work would not buy me an entry to a PPA funride. 

My first car (a second hand 82 corolla 1.3gl) was 6k ....

 

 

My thoughts exactly.

 

A number of "drive train upgrades" now cost significantly more than a new car cost in the early 90's 

 

 

Actually, my basic ebike cost more in 2020 than our first house did in 1990 ...

 

 

Inflation is a lady dog .....

 

 

 

Sorry, what were we moaning about again ?

[Mamil]

22 minutes ago, ChrisF said:

 

My thoughts exactly.

 

A number of "drive train upgrades" now cost significantly more than a new car cost in the early 90's 

 

 

Actually, my basic ebike cost more in 2020 than our first house did in 1990 ...

 

 

Inflation is a lady dog .....

 

 

 

Sorry, what were we moaning about again ?

About how if this rain doesn't stop soon I'm gonna be out of pocket to the tune of half an '82 corolla.

I sold that car to a gardener in about 95 for 5k. It held its value well. The sangoma who introduced me to the buyer laughed as he drove away in the car and said "that one!! His name means 'the one who makes an accident'". 

Sure enough, the purchaser wrote that car off and broke his legs in an accident a few months later.