Trail Runners in Tokai...

[porqui]

Interesting to see some cyclists here discussing ploughing into a runner. Joke or not, it's the same attitude to a car ploughing into a cyclist on the road.

 

Hypocrisy is never hip.

 

I would never want to plough into anyone ever rider or runner but that is axactly what could happen on some sections in Tokai - reality - calling it something else would take away the seriousness of the consequence.

 

At speed it could be fatal!

 

Btw - I came across a motorist that had "ploughed" into a cyclist - not pretty and fatal.

There was no other word for it.

Edited June 3, 2014 by porqui

[DJR]

On "that corner" on Vasbyt (just before the rock drop) and any other sections with reduced visibility, I've now taken to shouting "riiiider!" to warn anybody coming up...

 

I grew up at the foot of the Swartberg pass with its hairpin bends. Learning to drive, we were taught to hoot as you go slowly into the blind corners to warn oncoming traffic. I've done it ever since. Cool for mtbiking also

Edited June 3, 2014 by DJR

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

I grew up at the foot of the Swartberg pass with its hairpin bends. Learning to drive, we were taught to hoot as you go slowly into the blind corners to warn oncoming traffic. I've done it ever since. Cool for mtbiking also

 

Yeah. It is good practice.

[Red Zone]

I probably run and ride Tokai in equal amounts.

 

I see runners on the mtb tracks and I see riders on the horse trails, on the restricted jeep tracks. The payment issue is moot, as so many riders sneak in without paying. I personally feel that no-one should pay to use the mountain - but lets not go there.

 

I have had far, far, far more incidents involving riders on illegal paths when I am running than I have encountered runners on the singletrack. The way I feel is that if riders want to break the rules they need to face the consequences if SANParks shuts Tokai to riders or continues to give the Mtb community (metaphoric) continual uphill.

 

General environmental awareness also needs to go to the runners, little or no littering, not taking shortcuts, no skidding and sliding around, far less aggression and less "we own this place" attitudes.

 

The riding community needs to sort out its own activities before pointing fingers at the runners, they are on balance a far more law abiding bunch.

 

One final question how is a DH'er pushing his rig up the single track any better than a runner going up the same track, as per the photo on the first page of this thread.

 

On that point how are big groups of riders hanging around on blind corners, riding up singletrack, riding in lycra, stopping on singletrack, falling over, cutting corners (on the tar road down from the mast) any worse than the odd trail runner, who in general WILL get out of the way, it is pretty difficult to miss a DH rig shaking the earth as it flies down the trail. Its just because they are one of you that you look the other way, runners are causing no more disruption to your ride than other guys on bikes.

 

I run with the Trail and Tar guys pretty often, they are frequently told to stay off the singletrack, on the big Wednesday run I have never seen anyone run mtb singletrack.

 

 

Why cant people just get along, no-one owns the trail, no-one owns the mountain.

 

Riders joking about slamming into runners etc... need to realise that Tokai is a place for beginners, pros, families who are all over the singletrack, yes even on sections of the DH, you may have a 60 year old codger, my 5 year old who likes going over the bumps, someone who is a bit lost, a unicyclist. You bury your 2.5 inch Maxxis in someone's head you are going to be the one to blame. You need to be able to control your rig and take care especially on busy days. You want to ride with reckless abandon, then ride closed courses. Unless portions of Tokai are formally closed to all but a select group of riders consideration needs to be paid to all trail users. Just because you are able to go down the hill like Steve Peat doesn't give you the right to endanger others.

 

I am pretty sure if a rider badly hurts another trail user who is on foot and the trail isn't formally restricted to riders only, you can kiss goodbye to riding in Tokai as we know it

[Dan Dob]

Boulder Mountain biking has a great 1st rule of trail etiquette;

"First,treat everyone you meet on the trail like you'd treat your mother (if you don't like your mother, think of someone you really really like). Everyone is here to have a good time and being nice solves a lot of problems before they happen."

 

Red Zone make a few good points, especially about going at 100% pace on a public trail if you can't see what's ahead of you (are you totally in control of your bike?)

 

But I have seen plenty of trail runners (and hikers), on Table Mountain taking shortcuts that have far more erosion consequences than the shortcuts that mtbers might create (please don't people-just walk the section if you can't ride it!).

 

I'd like to see hikers, runners and mtbers sharing certain trails in Tokai. This way we can all work together in getting access to more trails by proving that we can co-exist. For this to happen, trail runners need to be educated and alert to dangers that could exist and riders need to slow down and be cautious around blind corners etc. (and maybe fit bells to bikes? I have hundreds to give away if anyone wants)

 

The worst thing we could do is kick up another huge fuss and make TMNP/Cape Pine think that we are a bunch of cowboys and not worth the hassle to deal with.

Edited June 3, 2014 by iRide

[Capricorn]

One final question how is a DH'er pushing his rig up the single track any better than a runner going up the same track, as per the photo on the first page of this thread.

 

a DHer pushing up is fully aware of the risks and more importantly, will always display the appropiate trail manner. Runners and other cyclists who do not respect the down-only directionality of a DH trail is most definitely not the proper basis for comparison.

There will always be the odd exception, but the lesson learnt is swift and generally permanent. I cannot say the same for runners and miscreant cyclists.

 

On that point how are big groups of riders hanging around on blind corners, riding up singletrack, riding in lycra, stopping on singletrack, falling over, cutting corners (on the tar road down from the mast) any worse than the odd trail runner, who in general WILL get out of the way, it is pretty difficult to miss a DH rig shaking the earth as it flies down the trail. Its just because they are one of you that you look the other way, runners are causing no more disruption to your ride than other guys on bikes.

 

you see this often or just creating argument on a theoretical scenario? Either way, that's poor trailside behaviour, and no different from the odd runner who actually doesn't have the time to get out of the way properly.

 

Edited June 3, 2014 by Capricorn

[Flowta]

Boulder Mountain biking has a great 1st rule of trail etiquette;

"First,treat everyone you meet on the trail like you'd treat your mother (if you don't like your mother, think of someone you really really like). Everyone is here to have a good time and being nice solves a lot of problems before they happen."

 

Red Zone make a few good points, especially about going at 100% pace on a public trail if you can't see what's ahead of you (are you totally in control of your bike?)

 

But I have seen plenty of trail runners (and hikers), on Table Mountain taking shortcuts that have far more erosion consequences than the shortcuts that mtbers might create (please don't people-just walk the section if you can't ride it!).

 

I'd like to see hikers, runners and mtbers sharing certain trails in Tokai. This way we can all work together in getting access to more trails by proving that we can co-exist. For this to happen, trail runners need to be educated and alert to dangers that could exist and riders need to slow down and be cautious around blind corners etc. (and maybe fit bells to bikes? I have hundreds to give away if anyone wants)

 

The worst thing we could do is kick up another huge fuss and make TMNP/Cape Pine think that we are a bunch of cowboys and not worth the hassle to deal with.

 

Unfortunately bells only work if people can hear you.

 

Came down Vasbyt and right at the beginning of the Troll bridge there's a guy walking (MTBer) but he has his earphones in.

 

Wasn't till I was almost touching him while trying to track stand that he noticed I was there, despite ringing my bell the whole time.

 

That being said my bell is sounding a bit mute, so if the offer stands I would love to get a bell off you

[Headshot]

@ Red Zone Now you really have muddied the waters :-)

 

The issues with fellow MTB riders have been argued ad nauseam already here and elsewhere. Basic trail etiquette from all sides will help enormously. Nobody disputes that Tokai is a place for all comers and all skill levels but sanity and common sense should prevail

 

On the environmental issues - yes bikes can damage trails more in some situations, but cyclists generally maintain those trails via Tokai MTB. The trail runners do nothing as far as I know. I haven't seen any litter on MTB trails. Hikers in my experience litter far more than bikers. Running down a path causes more erosion than simply rolling it on a bike. Its not an open and shut issue by any means

 

The person who made the comment about hitting a runner has explained his comment but you seem to have ignored it.

 

There is as much chance that an incident where a bike hits a pedestrian will cause cycling to be banned as if two bikes collide. You say you are a cyclist but appear to assume that an aggro cyclist would actually intentionally hit another person. We all know this is only possible if you are in a 4x4 and would never do it with our bikes :-) Cyclists are more at risk of serious injury because they can't simply step out of the way and are travelling a lot faster so its not an option, as you should know.

 

There is no such thing as riding with reckless abandon - those movies you see on Youtube are shot over many sessions and involve trained professionals :-). Everyone expects to meet a person or rider, adult or child when descending at Tokai and we ride with that in mind, always. Its the reality, we have no choice. To say that people should not be able to ride their bikes fast on a trail full of fun features, maintained and built by mountain bikers because of safety concerns goes too far I think. My comments about a speed limit were not meant to be taken seriously BTW.

 

The question is really whether runners should be running up a fast MTB trail in groups or alone or should they stick to the jeep track and other trails like Elephants Eye?

 

This is my approach:

 

When I run and hike on the mountain I go to Kirstenbosch or Cecilia. When I cycle I go to Tokai. If I went there to hike as I have done a few times with my baby son while my wife rides, I would stay off the fast dh trails or at least move well off a trail in very good time because I appreciate what effect my presence on the trail has for riders coming down. The runners I have encountered are generally oblivious until the last second and think that its okay to have your leg dangling into the trail rather than moving well off. This is why I think the trails in question should be mtb only. No matter how many warnings are given by the T and T run leaders, as already said some runners may not appreciate how fast a bike is going or the limited options available to a biker and the possibility of a serious crash. This is not a run/cycle along the Sea Point promenade after all.

 

What is needed is a bit of "putting yourself in the other's shoes" from all concerned and this is where discussions like this and some education by running and cycling groups will help a lot.

[SpyDude]

I probably run and ride Tokai in equal amounts.

 

I see runners on the mtb tracks and I see riders on the horse trails, on the restricted jeep tracks. The payment issue is moot, as so many riders sneak in without paying. I personally feel that no-one should pay to use the mountain - but lets not go there.

 

Fair enough, but reality is we pay and runners dont

 

I have had far, far, far more incidents involving riders on illegal paths when I am running than I have encountered runners on the singletrack. The way I feel is that if riders want to break the rules they need to face the consequences if SANParks shuts Tokai to riders or continues to give the Mtb community (metaphoric) continual uphill.

 

Cops on motorbikes & quads are actively hunting riders on illegal trails every single day.. kind kills that one

 

General environmental awareness also needs to go to the runners, little or no littering, not taking shortcuts, no skidding and sliding around, far less aggression and less "we own this place" attitudes.

 

Hence the trails are designed for riders.. stop being greedy bru, you have the entire filling mountain to jog on

 

The riding community needs to sort out its own activities before pointing fingers at the runners, they are on balance a far more law abiding bunch.

 

 

 

One final question how is a DH'er pushing his rig up the single track any better than a runner going up the same track, as per the photo on the first page of this thread.

 

You might notice that he is off to the side and he had to leave the line to make way for the joggers... so again, your argument is invalid

 

On that point how are big groups of riders hanging around on blind corners, riding up singletrack, riding in lycra, stopping on singletrack, falling over, cutting corners (on the tar road down from the mast) any worse than the odd trail runner, who in general WILL get out of the way, it is pretty difficult to miss a DH rig shaking the earth as it flies down the trail. Its just because they are one of you that you look the other way, runners are causing no more disruption to your ride than other guys on bikes.

 

Problem is you base your assumption that runners run by themselves... pity they reality is always 3-8 runners and the numbers are growing like a cancer.

 

I run with the Trail and Tar guys pretty often, they are frequently told to stay off the singletrack, on the big Wednesday run I have never seen anyone run mtb singletrack.

 

True, that's the only day mountain etiquette is respected

 

 

Why cant people just get along, no-one owns the trail, no-one owns the mountain.

 

Well basically until all things are equal and riders have as much freedom on the mountain as joggers do.

Any trail, any time, all for free

 

Riders joking about slamming into runners etc... need to realise that Tokai is a place for beginners, pros, families who are all over the singletrack, yes even on sections of the DH, you may have a 60 year old codger, my 5 year old who likes going over the bumps, someone who is a bit lost, a unicyclist. You bury your 2.5 inch Maxxis in someone's head you are going to be the one to blame. You need to be able to control your rig and take care especially on busy days. You want to ride with reckless abandon, then ride closed courses. Unless portions of Tokai are formally closed to all but a select group of riders consideration needs to be paid to all trail users. Just because you are able to go down the hill like Steve Peat doesn't give you the right to endanger others.

 

How exactly is going down a trail with jumps purpose built into it for riding bikes endangering a jogger? Oh wait dumbass jogger shouldnt be there in the first place. Thats like moaning if you walking into gugs with your AWB uniform on that you gonna get hurt... .

 

I am pretty sure if a rider badly hurts another trail user who is on foot and the trail isn't formally restricted to riders only, you can kiss goodbye to riding in Tokai as we know it... dude, do you realise how SELFISH you sound

[(Deon)]

"Cops on motorbikes & quads are actively hunting riders on illegal trails every single day.. kind kills that one"

 

Think about that.. Cops working exclusively for SANParks to fine people on bicycles riding in areas they may not.

 

..or, cops patrolling the area following several muggings.

 

Don't you love rumours?

[Flowta]

Cops on motorbikes & quads are actively hunting riders on illegal trails every single day.. kind kills that one

 

This isn't true. Cops were up there, on the look out for muggers

[Flowta]

"Cops on motorbikes & quads are actively hunting riders on illegal trails every single day.. kind kills that one"

 

Think about that.. Cops working exclusively for SANParks to fine people on bicycles riding in areas they may not.

 

..or, cops patrolling the area following several muggings.

 

Don't you love rumours?

 

Snap!!

[Kranky]

I grew up at the foot of the Swartberg pass with its hairpin bends. Learning to drive, we were taught to hoot as you go slowly into the blind corners to warn oncoming traffic. I've done it ever since. Cool for mtbiking also

 

My rear Hope hub does much the same. The only benefit I can fathom for it making that ghastly noise.

Edited June 3, 2014 by Nick.

[SpyDude]

"Cops on motorbikes & quads are actively hunting riders on illegal trails every single day.. kind kills that one"

 

Think about that.. Cops working exclusively for SANParks to fine people on bicycles riding in areas they may not.

 

..or, cops patrolling the area following several muggings.

 

Don't you love rumours?

 

Hey i am going on the warnings posted on FB trail builders group and the Tygerberg groups.

 

As per normal there wasnt much coming in that regard from the "official page" If anything that rumor should have been put to rest by the offical elected committee right then and there, but it wasn't.

 

Personally i have been riding in tokai since the late 80's never in my life have i ridden on a horse trail and have always paid my gate fee. This string started out as a concern for SAFETY... the one point the joggers just cant seem to understand. Blame everything and everyone else else but themselves

[GoLefty!!]

how does that song go again....?

[Flowta]

Hey i am going on the warnings posted on FB trail builders group and the Tygerberg groups.

 

As per normal there wasnt much coming in that regard from the "official page" If anything that rumor should have been put to rest by the offical elected committee right then and there, but it wasn't.

 

Personally i have been riding in tokai since the late 80's never in my life have i ridden on a horse trail and have always paid my gate fee. This string started out as a concern for SAFETY... the one point the joggers just cant seem to understand. Blame everything and everyone else else but themselves

Tokaimtb mountainbike central Shäun, I believe that's what those guys on quad bikes were ACTUALLY doing there-patrolling for suspicious people in Tokai. We want to feel and be safe in Tokai and rangers patrolling will help with that

Like · Reply · 2 · 12 May at 17:11