Cyclists with a "Running" Problem

[Hacc]

5 hours ago, ScottCM said:

This made me think. With all that has happened in the last year, I've gotten FAT.  Currently 26.4%, no wonder I'm so slow. HOWEVER, life has settled down a bit now so I'm on the journey back. Got my first trail marathon in 5 weeks. Going to pull a page from the Steer playbook , "Super undertrain for the event" 😉

I am borrowing the playbook from Steer as well... I started training for CT marathon (16 Oct) at  the beginning of July... First and second week went well, third week exams got in the way, third week I sprained my ankle (fell while running with my puppy) and still nursing it this week. I hope to start again next week if all goes well. 

Good luck to all that will be on the starting line on the 28th of August. I have huge respect for all of you training through winter! 

[buckstopper]

What sort of rFTP would it take to run a 37 min 10k, and is a rFTP a similar number to a cycling FTP for a person who runs and cycles?

Edited July 20, 2022 by buckstopper
Omission

[Jehosefat]

13 hours ago, buckstopper said:

What sort of rFTP would it take to run a 37 min 10k, and is a rFTP a similar number to a cycling FTP for a person who runs and cycles?

No idea on the first question because I'm nowhere near that level. I'm currently about a 50-52 minute 10k. As to the second one, no, they are nothing alike. E.g. my cycling FTP is about 250W whereas my running FTP is like 390W (based on a Garmin chest strap with Forerunner 955). My current weight is 83-84kg if you want to look at W/kg measures.

[shaper]

13 hours ago, buckstopper said:

What sort of rFTP would it take to run a 37 min 10k, and is a rFTP a similar number to a cycling FTP for a person who runs and cycles?

Work out your W/Kg and look at the table here https://blog.stryd.com/2020/01/10/how-to-calculate-your-race-time-from-your-target-power/ You will need to be around 4.75W/Kg if running with a stryd pod.  Terrain, elevation and ambient conditions may impact actual and will also have to be considered.

As also stated Cycling and Running FTP are completely different in the algorithm's used so not comparable

[Jehosefat]

39 minutes ago, shaper said:

Work out your W/Kg and look at the table here https://blog.stryd.com/2020/01/10/how-to-calculate-your-race-time-from-your-target-power/ You will need to be around 4.75W/Kg if running with a stryd pod.  Terrain, elevation and ambient conditions may impact actual and will also have to be considered.

As also stated Cycling and Running FTP are completely different in the algorithm's used so not comparable

We should also add that not all companies use the same definition of power for running. i.e. Garmin says they measure "propulsive power applied at the road", whereas Stryd measures the "positive mechanical energy". So you get very different running FTP measures from the different devices as well (one study I saw showed about a 30% difference).

[buckstopper]

40 minutes ago, Jehosefat said:

We should also add that not all companies use the same definition of power for running. i.e. Garmin says they measure "propulsive power applied at the road", whereas Stryd measures the "positive mechanical energy". So you get very different running FTP measures from the different devices as well (one study I saw showed about a 30% difference).

I guess as a cyclist with a running problem (on a cycling forum with a random running thread) when I see a 37 min 10k being "doable" I want to burn my shoes. (BTW the Stryd table extrapolated the 37ish 10k time to a 2h33 marathon - also "doable", one would imagine ;).

Interestingly, my running and cycling ftps are at the moment quite similar, although I would say I'm a trained competitive age grouper cyclist, but a novice runner with a reasonably decent engine (for my age).

[Jewbacca]

14 minutes ago, buckstopper said:

I guess as a cyclist with a running problem (on a cycling forum with a random running thread) when I see a 37 min 10k being "doable" I want to burn my shoes. (BTW the Stryd table extrapolated the 37ish 10k time to a 2h33 marathon - also "doable", one would imagine ;).

Interestingly, my running and cycling ftps are at the moment quite similar, although I would say I'm a trained competitive age grouper cyclist, but a novice runner with a reasonably decent engine (for my age).

A 37 minute 10k an a 2:33 marathon are definitely doable. They will just take work. 

track, sprints, diet, repeats... It's probably not going to be fun a lot of the time. Once you get there you can choose to stay there or try to get faster, which, like bike weight reduction, comes at more and more of a premium.

Every minute starts getting more an more difficult to shave off. 

The focus would probably make you a runner with a cycling problem though

[SwissVan]

2 hours ago, Jewbacca said:

A 37 minute 10k an a 2:33 marathon are definitely doable. They will just take work. 

 

Ha, this reminds me somewhat funny mistake i made during my first "annual check up" here in Switz, the Dr who I had never seen before also turned out to be a runner and he asked me what my marafun PB was.... without hesitating i told him it was 2:18 albeit quite a long time ago... Having just done a cardio stress test and being pretty fit at the time he said he can see I'm fit and was very impressed with this PB time....  

Later that evening telling my SOH about the new Dr it suddenly dawned on me that i got it all wrong, my PB was 3:18 😆

Edit: BTW i have a 10k PB of 39 minutes achieved during the 2nd run of duathlon way back in the early 90's

Edited July 21, 2022 by SwissVan

[buckstopper]

4 hours ago, Jewbacca said:

A 37 minute 10k an a 2:33 marathon are definitely doable. They will just take work. 

track, sprints, diet, repeats... It's probably not going to be fun a lot of the time. Once you get there you can choose to stay there or try to get faster, which, like bike weight reduction, comes at more and more of a premium.

Every minute starts getting more an more difficult to shave off. 

The focus would probably make you a runner with a cycling problem though

Doable, but for who? What VO2max is needed to do a 2h33 marathon? My Google research suggests about 64ml/kg/min. This would be regarded as elite for someone in their prime. (Ave male 20-29 years 40-46ml/kg min). Is it that cyclists with a running problem are just uber, and they don't realise how far above average they are? In the 2021 Boston marathon about 120 out of 15000  men went 2h33 or better (0.77%). A 2h33 marathon = an about 6h22 comrades.  45 men managed this last time. Coach Parry suggests that to run a silver (sub 7h30) you need to have "a great deal of running ability".

What would be doable for a cyclist of same ability as a 37min 10k runner? A sub 1 hour 40km tt? A 2h45 Aurgust? A performance within 20% of a world class climber up the Hatacam? 

 

[Edgar]

5 hours ago, buckstopper said:

I guess as a cyclist with a running problem (on a cycling forum with a random running thread) when I see a 37 min 10k being "doable" I want to burn my shoes. (BTW the Stryd table extrapolated the 37ish 10k time to a 2h33 marathon - also "doable", one would imagine ;).

Interestingly, my running and cycling ftps are at the moment quite similar, although I would say I'm a trained competitive age grouper cyclist, but a novice runner with a reasonably decent engine (for my age).

I will put it out there, nobody with a 37 min 10K pb is getting close to a 2:33 marathon.  Off that they would be lucky to do 2:45. 

 

Based off experience you would need to have a 10k PB between 32:30 - 34:00. Stryd is selling you the dream

[Edgar]

On 7/19/2022 at 7:58 AM, Andrew Steer said:

I agree with much of what you say... but I also think you're so not average that it shifts the goal posts quite a bit! A 90kg unit that can run a 37minute 10km is not remotely average in my books. That's a proper athlete, and if he was better built for running and something in line with 75/80kg's, he'd be shaving off a good few more minutes no doubt.

You and Ferret running Comrades again? Sorry I've been a bit out of the loop

 

He is a very avg runner and by his own admission. He was a decent rower at uni, but that was 15 plus years ago.

I'm doing Comrades again, I've had a terrible build up and its too flat in London. I'm going to hurt on the downhills. 3 weeks of African hills will help though.

 

Ferret has dropped me like last weeks newspaper, I couldn't even convince him to pace me to inchanga. He has his focus set on smashing berlin and going super low, I'll be on the start line with him and in the bar afterwards but I don't think I will spend much time on the course with him.

[Jewbacca]

1 minute ago, Edgar said:

I will put it out there, nobody with a 37 min 10K pb is getting close to a 2:33 marathon.  Off that they would be lucky to do 2:45. 

 

Based off experience you would need to have a 10k PB between 32:30 - 34:00. Stryd is selling you the dream

I agree. 

25 minutes ago, buckstopper said:

Doable, but for who? What VO2max is needed to do a 2h33 marathon? My Google research suggests about 64ml/kg/min. This would be regarded as elite for someone in their prime. (Ave male 20-29 years 40-46ml/kg min). Is it that cyclists with a running problem are just uber, and they don't realise how far above average they are? In the 2021 Boston marathon about 120 out of 15000  men went 2h33 or better (0.77%). A 2h33 marathon = an about 6h22 comrades.  45 men managed this last time. Coach Parry suggests that to run a silver (sub 7h30) you need to have "a great deal of running ability".

What would be doable for a cyclist of same ability as a 37min 10k runner? A sub 1 hour 40km tt? A 2h45 Aurgust? A performance within 20% of a world class climber up the Hatacam? 

 

Doable for someone willing to put in the work?

I also don't think one can draw parallels between such vastly different distances. 

My 10pb is well under 33 minutes an I have never been close to a 2:33. 

If you are willing to do the work, be consistent, be patient and commit, you should be able to get to a comfortable sub3 marathon and decent sub 40 10km without having to have elite genes.

But you probably won't get there if you're not willing to sacrifice booze, junk food etc... It will take discipline across the board, especially getting into it later in life.

[DJuice]

8 minutes ago, Edgar said:

I will put it out there, nobody with a 37 min 10K pb is getting close to a 2:33 marathon.  Off that they would be lucky to do 2:45. 

 

Based off experience you would need to have a 10k PB between 32:30 - 34:00. Stryd is selling you the dream

My PB was 37:10 for 10km, I have not manage to break 3h. I know it is training and ...... and...

To break 3h will be a lifelong dream and accomplishment. 

[Jehosefat]

Based on @shaper's post earlier of a 4.75W/kg rFTP for a 37min 10k. Assuming a 4.75W/kg cycling FTP would put you as a very good to excellent amateur but not quite good enough to be a domestic pro based on Coggan's table (that you can see here: https://www.cyclinganalytics.com/blog/2012/06/watts-kg-on-the-power-curve)

The big caveat here is that running and cycling FTP are not comparable so assuming both are 4.75 is a stretch.

[Edgar]

16 minutes ago, DJuice said:

My PB was 37:10 for 10km, I have not manage to break 3h. I know it is training and ...... and...

To break 3h will be a lifelong dream and accomplishment. 

With that PB and following the Asics Sub 3 program you would break the sub 3 barrier. 

[DJuice]

1 minute ago, Edgar said:

With that PB and following the Asics Sub 3 program you would break the sub 3 barrier. 

Edgar is that the program in miles...if so, I have tried, done the conversions.

Will be honest lacking commitment!!!

This morning, I ended up walking, was just "easier".