Cyclists with a "Running" Problem

[Jackes]

Just to say what a great little race the Wilge River Potato Pride 21k is. This country route at Frankfort, is deserving of more support. Cheers.

 

Is it a gravel race, it seems?

[Andrew Steer]

Sounds like a great opportunity for the shoe manufacturers to garner PR. But what about the exercise Prof's approach.....$30M budget! 

 

So with regard to the too- or not scientific enough references, I wonder what's known about the required physiological performance of an athlete to run at sub-2 hr pace? (I know sweet FA about running), but if you look at the capabilities of the predictions for the cycling 1-hr record attempts, the required power, for example, can be closely predicted. That can be inter-related to what a cyclist can do on a watt-bike for instance, and predictions adjusted, or training gaps attacked etc. The same can be done via oxygen demand etc. Is this the case for running, particularly on a semi-controlled course, and ignoring the influence of weather etc??

 

Ross Tucker goes quite a bit into the physiological side on his site...

He reckons it's not gonna happen, but under these artificial conditions you just never know

 

http://sportsscienti...acing-strategy/

 

Hopefully it will be streaming somewhere, definitely keen to follow

[Edgar]

My view on the sub 2:

 

It is a contrived marketing experiment in a controlled environment. The question i keep asking myself, are the results even relevant? I would equate it to asking Bolt to go sub 9, in a 100m chamber that has reduced atmosphere, gravity, on a slight downhill and with a controlled tailwind. Is it a true physiological performance?

 

The more interesting aspect is the psychological side of the experiment. It is one of the factors they can't control. How motivated are the athletes to suffer for this? What happens if they fall behind the required pacing?  (4 sec/km is a massive improvement at this level) Each second per km they miss the effort required to make it up is exponential. What is there mental state going into it? What is the athletes driver to do the sub 2.

 

Knowing that they have limited super fast marathons in them, what future opportunities are they sacrificing? Ultimately this will not be a world record, it will not be a race win? A massive pay day if they do under 2 perhaps? Do they share the cash, or is just the guy that crosses the line first? 

[Ferret69]

 I would equate it to asking Bolt to go sub 9, in a 100m chamber that has reduced atmosphere, gravity, on a slight downhill and with a controlled tailwind. Is it a true physiological performance?

 

 

 

IMHO....I'm not so sure about that

 

This Course is a full 42.2kms, its circular... Its not down hill in elevation (so fully legal) and its outdoor so even though wind controlled you are still taking on some elements

 

The main reason its not going to be ratified is the pace makers coming in and out..

 

Why is this "much" different to Paula Radcliffe's 2h15 ladies record... she was able to be  paced by stronger Men the entire way... The only problem here is there are no men strong enough to hold this pace for the required distance to help the top 3 enough.

 

In my opinion this is a lot more LEGIT then people who have their marathon PBs or qualifiers over downhill races like Kaapsehoop Marathon etc...

 

I know a lot of guys that would do a 5km downhill run and honestly think its ok calling it a PB..

 

As for the Shoe debate over whether those are legit... I don't have enough expertise to comment

[ScottCM]

Since this science experiment was announced i have been watching the international races, London, Paris, etc in the hope that someone there, not in Nike shoes would "Just do It" before tomorrows test. 

[Mudsimus]

There is nothing special about the shoes, except the carbon plate. Something used in other sport shoes for years already.

[Chris_]

Since this science experiment was announced i have been watching the international races, London, Paris, etc in the hope that someone there, not in Nike shoes would "Just do It" before tomorrows test. 

 

Exactly what I've been hoping for.. 

 

I'm also hesitant to comparing running PB's where no two courses are alike and especially comparing to downhill non-circular routes, seems silly to me.

 

Nike is a marketing company. All this talk (whether positive or negative) is what  they set out to achieve. Job done I'd say. To break the barrier would be cool, I would still be hugely impressed. I hope the athletes are cashing in as much as Nike is at the end of all this.

[HOEKVLAG]

IMHO....I'm not so sure about that

 

This Course is a full 42.2kms, its circular... Its not down hill in elevation (so fully legal) and its outdoor so even though wind controlled you are still taking on some elements

 

The main reason its not going to be ratified is the pace makers coming in and out..

 

Why is this "much" different to Paula Radcliffe's 2h15 ladies record... she was able to be  paced by stronger Men the entire way... The only problem here is there are no men strong enough to hold this pace for the required distance to help the top 3 enough.

 

In my opinion this is a lot more LEGIT then people who have their marathon PBs or qualifiers over downhill races like Kaapsehoop Marathon etc...

 

I know a lot of guys that would do a 5km downhill run and honestly think its ok calling it a PB..

 

As for the Shoe debate over whether those are legit... I don't have enough expertise to comment

I really like this reasoning...

[Tubehunter]

I really like this reasoning...

 

Yeah me too. The guys still have to run this on their own steam out in the real world whatever the other factors are. That certainly counts for a whole lot of credibility!

[Fat Boab]

Ross Tucker goes quite a bit into the physiological side on his site...

He reckons it's not gonna happen, but under these artificial conditions you just never know

 

http://sportsscienti...acing-strategy/

 

Hopefully it will be streaming somewhere, definitely keen to follow

 

Thanks for this. I beg to differ though, Prof Tucker isn't being very scientific at all, or at least not in the way I inquired about. Analysis of pacing data, although important, is all about 'output'. I'd like to believe that the required physiological engine with all the biomechanical gait efficiencies etc, ie inputs, must be assessable. Allied with best-of-breed values gleaned from lab trials, must point to what the upper limits of human performance is, with assumptions obviously. Maybe I read about this somewhere, but now think it's my idea! (It's Friday after all...)

[Fat Boab]

Yeah me too. The guys still have to run this on their own steam out in the real world whatever the other factors are. That certainly counts for a whole lot of credibility!

 

100% agreed. I think it will point to what these okes are physiologically, and psychologically, capable of. Infact I wonder if treadmill 'marathons' have been done to create controllable environmental conditions for investigation?

[Jackes]

45 refreshment stations along the 86.73km #Comrades2017 route will provide the following nourishment to runners:

Coke – 30,350 litres
Fanta/Crème Soda – 10,650 litres
Coke paper cups (175ml) – 450,000
Energade sachets (150ml) – 750,000
Energade RTD bottles (500ml) – 51,360
Water sachets – 1.875 million
Bananas – 9 tons
Oranges – 8 tons
Biscuits – 1 ton
Racefood honey nougat energy bars – 21,000
Cooked potatoes – 3 tons

[Andrew Steer]

Thanks for this. I beg to differ though, Prof Tucker isn't being very scientific at all, or at least not in the way I inquired about. Analysis of pacing data, although important, is all about 'output'. I'd like to believe that the required physiological engine with all the biomechanical gait efficiencies etc, ie inputs, must be assessable. Allied with best-of-breed values gleaned from lab trials, must point to what the upper limits of human performance is, with assumptions obviously. Maybe I read about this somewhere, but now think it's my idea! (It's Friday after all...)

 

I hear you, he doesn't quite go to that depth... I think he has to some degree in the past done so though. I can't quite recall though. Or maybe that was just cycling? Please share if you find something... although it might be a bit over my head to fully grasp anyway

[Fat Boab]

I hear you, he doesn't quite go to that depth... I think he has to some degree in the past done so though. I can't quite recall though. Or maybe that was just cycling? Please share if you find something... although it might be a bit over my head to fully grasp anyway

 

He's definitely punted such a physiological approach in cycling, or at least other commentators' approaches (I don't remember him doing his own analysis, but age is dulling....em, what's it called?.....RECALL!)

 

If I find time, I'll scratch around and share...

[Hacc]

45 refreshment stations along the 86.73km #Comrades2017 route will provide the following nourishment to runners:

Coke – 30,350 litres

Fanta/Crème Soda – 10,650 litres

Coke paper cups (175ml) – 450,000

Energade sachets (150ml) – 750,000

Energade RTD bottles (500ml) – 51,360

Water sachets – 1.875 million

Bananas – 9 tons

Oranges – 8 tons

Biscuits – 1 ton

Racefood honey nougat energy bars – 21,000

Cooked potatoes – 3 tons

Looking forward to the potatoes! 

Personally, I think there are too many water points at Comrades

[Andrew Steer]

IMHO....I'm not so sure about that

 

This Course is a full 42.2kms, its circular... Its not down hill in elevation (so fully legal) and its outdoor so even though wind controlled you are still taking on some elements

 

The main reason its not going to be ratified is the pace makers coming in and out..

 

Why is this "much" different to Paula Radcliffe's 2h15 ladies record... she was able to be  paced by stronger Men the entire way... The only problem here is there are no men strong enough to hold this pace for the required distance to help the top 3 enough.

 

In my opinion this is a lot more LEGIT then people who have their marathon PBs or qualifiers over downhill races like Kaapsehoop Marathon etc...

 

I know a lot of guys that would do a 5km downhill run and honestly think its ok calling it a PB..

 

As for the Shoe debate over whether those are legit... I don't have enough expertise to comment

 

Really like this view, although I hear Edgars angle too... you take out the pace makers, and no race tactics as such, and the conditions are pretty much racing ones. The Radcliffe comparison was very apt... she had pace makers above her ability, there simply isn't somebody for these guys. And with wind resistance so much less of an issue in running relative to cycling, it's not quite like guys doing the hour record behind a derny - it's placebo affect as much as anything having the pace setters out there - their bodies still have to do the talking on the day. 

 

I'm going to put it out there and say Kipchoge will break the world record - the lack of race tactics mainly to help with a small chunk of time. The weather conditions I would reckon will be a small bit extra too. He's an absolute animal, and incredibly consistent. Can't see him getting under 2hrs though unless those shoes really are something of an aide.