BarHugger Posted February 10, 2016 Posted February 10, 2016 Jip.....makes sense.......Problem though. SAIDS runs on a very limited budget. Last time I heard it was around R3000 per test.And then there is the whole marketing aspect of it. SAIDS not "catching" anyone can't be good for business. So they turn to Joe Soap doing diet pills to keep up with fancy Nancy from the office in order to get "good results". We caught 50 cheats last year, give us more money. Well....that is how I see it. SAIDS is not in it for the sport but to catch cheats. And that is good. But I would like to see people that cheat in their profession. Cheating on your own home budget is just proof that you are dumb. Cheating on the Co. budget that you preset to the BOD.....that is fraud.This post really hits home....I agree with your sentiment and it's a sad situation....it actually is an indication that we are really wasting our time and we are fooling ourselves if we think we are going to eradicate doping in cycling in South Africa.....
JXV Posted February 10, 2016 Posted February 10, 2016 (edited) So as part of my formulating my arguments to illustrate my distrust of the system I've been reading through transcripts of SAIDS hearings with athletes who have found themselves on the wrong side of the process. The challenge with educating people about the system is not with the process but rather what is allowed and what is not , knowing all the names of the substances. This burden lies with the athlete. This in itself is a bit of an unfair expectation since one really needs a degree in sports medicine, pharmacy or biochemistry to make head or tail of it. The app on their website is helpful but it wouldn't have helped the kid who bought supplements from dischem and 32Gi. The whole burden of proof lying with the athletes smacks of a witch hunt since the athletes; particularly at an amateur or lower level pro will not have the resources to establish the contents of every vitamin or supplement they ingest without having a lab do analysis of the products. It's here where I feel WADA and moRe locally SAIDS needs to be assisting by identifying which products actually contain banned substances and approve products that are clean by either developing an SABS standard or applying a SAIDS approved mark to products. In a he mean time it feels like picking the low hanging fruit to serve as sacrificial lambs and a deterrent to others is the real objective. If a real doper gets caught then that's a bonus.Even as a chemical engineer some of the names on that list make no sense or are unpronounceable to me...... How a person not educated in the sciences or backed up by a team physician is supposed to make practical use of that list I don't know. Even a simple common over-the-counter flu-cold remedy like Corenza that my GP advised me to buy yesterday has a few of those substances in it. So technically I'm a doper today but don't worry, I'm not entered for any races in the near future...... I would agree that the list should be supplemented by trade nemes and a stamp or approval mark on the packaging of medication saying 'safe-for-sportspeople' or the like would be very helpful. Edited February 10, 2016 by JXV Baaisikilist, raptor-22 and Smurfy 3
nochain Posted February 10, 2016 Posted February 10, 2016 Even as a chemical engineer some of the names on that list make no sense or are unpronounceable....... How a person not educated in the sciences or backed up by a team physician is supposed to make practical use of that list I don't know. Even a simple common over-the-counter flu-cold remedy like Corenza that my GP advised me to buy yesterday has a few of those substances in it. So technically I'm a doper today but don't worry, I'm not entered for any races in the near future...... I would agree that the list should be supplemented by trade nemes and a stamp or approval mark saying 'safe-for-sportspeople' or the like would be very helpful.To add to this whole thing is the "glow" period us plonkers also need to understand.So yes I can go and check for the meds on the list and yes I should not race when sick...but what about 5 days later..got some strong stuff from Doc...week later I am feeling great and no longer taking the meds and I go race.Oooopsss so and so stays in your blood for up to a month...Test positive and get a ban. That's why I just don't care at all about these things anymore...I am 40 years old and love competing but I am long past worrying about what I use as medication when I am sick. I take what the doc gives me and when I am better I go race.Only problem with this is I race for a team and now all of a sudden I have to think about them as well...the impact it will have on them if I test positive for something...not nice at all!! I don't get paid to do this I just love racing...Road bikes, Mtb bikes, Trail runs,Triathlons..love them all.If some brain dead guy wants to take diet pills to try and compete then its he's problem!! TALUS, JXV and raptor-22 3
mazambaan Posted February 10, 2016 Posted February 10, 2016 R3 000 per test sounds cheap. I'm paying around R5 000 a time for quite comprehensive (not fully comprehensive mind you) water tests and for a number of elements they do not register below say between 0.05 and 0.001mg/litre, depending on the element or compound etc.
raptor-22 Posted February 10, 2016 Posted February 10, 2016 any type of gas chromatography (GC) test is going to cost more R3000 in equipment usage. I'm basically of the opinion that if they need scape goats then so be it. eventually hey will just kill the hand that feeds them
Patchelicious Posted February 10, 2016 Posted February 10, 2016 Moral of the story? Don't dope and you won't get caught.
raptor-22 Posted February 10, 2016 Posted February 10, 2016 Moral of the story? Don't dope and you won't get caught. you missing the point with your oversimplification. intentionally dope for performance and you get caught. maybe? This person deserves to get caught and have the book thrown at them. unintentionally dope and get caught, maybe? This person does not deserve to have the book thrown at them. But the process needs to be fair to both parties. This requires enough information to be available for a non professional to be able to check with 99% certainty that what they are taking for an ailment is legal and does not contain traces of banned chemicals. This burden of proof should not be onerous on the amateur if the point is to educate and promote good health. Most pro's have resources at their disposal to be able to investigate further and get real answers since most of them have a supplements or nutrition sponsor that has access to the appropriate lab equipment and QC procedures. Excuses for these people agreed are rather thin JXV 1
Patchelicious Posted February 10, 2016 Posted February 10, 2016 (edited) Um no. I think we have lost touch with the issue by analysis paralysis. People dope, they shouldn't. We can't selectively defend people. I'm still trying to understand your position on this athlete, and why there is a more sympathetic approach than to others. Edited February 10, 2016 by Patchelicious
raptor-22 Posted February 10, 2016 Posted February 10, 2016 (edited) I'm sympathetic to all of them dopers. Its just a shame they have to dope to feel like they're pro's. All I have to do to feel like a pro is by Euro team kit Edited February 10, 2016 by raptor-22 Patchelicious 1
Skubarra Posted February 10, 2016 Posted February 10, 2016 But the process needs to be fair to both parties. This requires enough information to be available for a non professional to be able to check with 99% certainty that what they are taking for an ailment is legal and does not contain traces of banned chemicals. This burden of proof should not be onerous on the amateur if the point is to educate and promote good health. Just out of curiosity, how many amateur cyclists do you know of are serving bans for innocently taking the wrong medicine for ailments?
raptor-22 Posted February 10, 2016 Posted February 10, 2016 no one I know but check out the SAIDS website for the closed cases: http://www.drugfreesport.org.za/cases/ read through a lot of them and there's a common theme of ignorance or not knowing where to find out including not knowing what's in supplements. the bodybuilders cases are mostly clea cut wanting the bulk up and then loose weight to look cool and getting crappy advice from other gym members but the athletics cases shows that there's more that needs to be done to educate people about what's in the supplements and medication. My argument is that the guiding principal of an individual being 100% responsible for knowing what they ingest is flawed on the grounds that the information on EXACTLY what is in a products needs to be 100% disclosed. Only then can that principal be fair. GLuvsMtb 1
Skubarra Posted February 10, 2016 Posted February 10, 2016 no one I know but check out the SAIDS website for the closed cases: http://www.drugfreesport.org.za/cases/ read through a lot of them and there's a common theme of ignorance or not knowing where to find out including not knowing what's in supplements. ok I actually agree with just about everything you said re amateurs & ignorance It's just that we very rarely hear of amateur cyclists being pinged for using the wrong cough medicine, either it is not really happening or the pro dopers are hogging all the media attention.
Edition 507 Posted February 10, 2016 Posted February 10, 2016 taken in the context of doping you are assuming that everyone who takes medication is intending to cheat. Ag please give me a break.In the context of doping, what I am saying is that being sick, pretending to be sick, having, or pretending to have some kind of a 'chronic' ailment is NOT an excuse for taking banned substances, nor is the ignorance thereof a valid excuse. Capricorn, ChunkyMonkey, Smurfy and 2 others 5
raptor-22 Posted February 10, 2016 Posted February 10, 2016 (edited) Clearly your mind is made up so no point in further dialogue Edited February 10, 2016 by raptor-22
andydude Posted February 10, 2016 Posted February 10, 2016 Good discussion, thanks. I kind of agree with what carbon boy and raptor is saying. Vaalhaai 1
EmptyB Posted February 10, 2016 Posted February 10, 2016 Are bananas and peanut butter sarmies still legal...if not, I'm fu**ed. Underachiever and raptor-22 2
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