RIFLE

[johnson]

I never knew they made such a thing. What would the idea behind it be? What intended use?

The video that Hairy posted is quite informative of it's history and the reason they were produced.

Back in the 90's the gun laws prohibited civilians from owning carbine/AR/semi-auto rifles.

There was a demand from farm owners and security company's for a "military style" weapon.

So the only way to make it legal for civilians was to produce it in "pump action" form. Some of it's

parts is the exact same parts as the R/LM series rifles.  

[BigDL]

personally found this interesting

 

https://youtu.be/bMkiTnNA1NI

We had an LM4 and a Mini 14 in the house for many years growing up. Due to the particular circumstances of our location, we spent a lot of time training with them and carrying them when out and about. The LM4 was definitely my preferred choice. Rugged and better mag capacity. It also meant that when I got to the army, I was fairly knowledgeable about the R4 as they were basically the same thing

[BigDL]

Here you go Hairy

They were produced with three different barrel lengths.

This is the middle size one with an 18 inch barrel.

I was running a gun shop in KZN when these launched. I was lucky enough to be invited up to Pretoria for their unveiling. We got a tour of the facility and spent time shooting the rifles. They were a great answer to the challenges involved in licensing semi autos, but I never really warmed to them.

[Gen]

May as well ask here...you gius seem to know a LOT.

 

If say a person (me) would buy a handgun what handgun would be recommended.

 

Apparently it would make everyone feel better if I had a handgun as it's just the boys and me and we travel on our own quite a bit.

 

I am currently busy with all my competency..did the hours in the classroom, did the open book exams and aced the closed book exams..this weekend I start the practical side of things.

[Hairy]

I am sure you lot may find this interesting

 

[The Ghost]

May as well ask here...you gius seem to know a LOT.

 

If say a person (me) would buy a handgun what handgun would be recommended.

 

Apparently it would make everyone feel better if I had a handgun as it's just the boys and me and we travel on our own quite a bit.

 

I am currently busy with all my competency..did the hours in the classroom, did the open book exams and aced the closed book exams..this weekend I start the practical side of things.

*this post assumes things like an average sort of hand size and some level of function and strength, specifics would need to be supplied if not and before final recommendation*

 

Hey Gen,

I’m sure that this will get some folks all excited and hot under the collar as this usually does, but I would seriously suggest a 9mm Glock over any other.

 

Now I know that there are people that have concerns about an external safety but really if you take the time and make the effort to get proper training and then stick to the rules for safe gun handling (both of which I suggest every gun owner should do) and buy a proper holster you will be in a better position than a safety lever can provide.

Many people argue different reasons for a safety being better but the reality is that the best safety is the person holding the gun and not a lever, and yes even a 4yr old can disengage a safety in seconds without any instruction on how to.

 

Just to give you some idea of where I’m coming from, before we left SA just under a year ago I was working full time in the trade, I was (still am) an advanced level certified firearms instructor and have top 3 finishes at national level for some sports shooting disciplines and some top 10 finishes for other disciplines at national level; with handguns being my favourite.

 

Whilst I think the competency process there is a start I believe in training and improving and proper understanding of the defensive process and personal trauma etc that it all entails so I set out and created training courses that went well beyond just the basics in the books. I also spent hundreds of hours doing analysis from crime scenes using CCTV footage of crimes committed in SA as I realised quite early on that crime there didn’t match that happening in the US which is where most people were getting their information and hence tactics etc from. I studied trauma, profiling, involuntary body responses, etc etc I was very passionate about personal protection and helping others.

I could go on, but I think you get the idea.

 

When I got my first pistol I just didn’t want to get a Glock as most people had suggested and I got something else, and it didn’t take long for me to realise the error of my ways and changing your section 13 is a pain in the butt, but eventually I did.

Although I had quite a few handguns many of which I was more passionate about and cost even 3 and 4 times what the Glock cost it was still a Glock 19 to which I trusted my life and that of my family when I strapped it on every day.

Why? Because of all the guns I ever owned they were hands down the most reliable, as a bonus they were also the most user friendly to operate and maintain and still worked extremely well even if not cleaned etc regularly.

 

By the time we left SA we had more Glocks in the house than any other handguns and they were all worked pretty hard and the only failure I ever had was on a rough 12 hour training course where after hand to hand combat on beach sand it had a ton of sand in it and the slide was not reciprocating well so not feeding properly, I stripped the slide off, wiped in the rails with my shirt and seconds later the gun was running like a dream. That gun had 10 000 rounds through it when I sold it and that was the only trouble I ever had, it’s still in use with a friend back in SA to this day.

My wife also carried a Glock and come to think of it so do about 90% of our friends.

 

Anyway I could go on but this could get very long.

If you have any other questions you can just shout.

I also have a friend who is a lady who owns a gun shop in SA that I can put you in touch with if you’d like a woman’s perspective too, she’d be very happy to help you out.

Edited October 1, 2020 by The Ghost

[Gen]

*this post assumes things like an average sort of hand size and some level of function and strength, specifics would need to be supplied if not and before final recommendation*

 

Hey Gen,

I’m sure that this will get some folks all excited and hot under the collar as this usually does, but I would seriously suggest a 9mm Glock over any other.

 

Now I know that there are people that have concerns about an external safety but really if you take the time and make the effort to get proper training and then stick to the rules for safe gun handling (both of which I suggest every gun owner should do) and buy a proper holster you will be in a better position than a safety lever can provide.

Many people argue different reasons for a safety being better but the reality is that the best safety is the person holding the gun and not a lever, and yes even a 4yr old can disengage a safety in seconds without any instruction on how to.

 

Just to give you some idea of where I’m coming from, before we left SA just under a year ago I was working full time in the trade, I was (still am) an advanced level certified firearms instructor and have top 3 finishes at national level for some sports shooting disciplines and some top 10 finishes for other disciplines at national level; with handguns being my favourite.

 

Whilst I think the competency process there is a start I believe in training and improving and proper understanding of the defensive process and personal trauma etc that it all entails so I set out and created training courses that went well beyond just the basics in the books. I also spent hundreds of hours doing analysis from crime scenes using CCTV footage of crimes committed in SA as I realised quite early on that crime there didn’t match that happening in the US which is where most people were getting their information and hence tactics etc from. I studied trauma, profiling, involuntary body responses, etc etc I was very passionate about personal protection and helping others.

I could go on, but I think you get the idea.

 

When I got my first pistol I just didn’t want to get a Glock as most people had suggested and I got something else, and it didn’t take long for me to realise the error of my ways and changing your section 13 is a pain in the butt, but eventually I did.

Although I had quite a few handguns many of which I was more passionate about and cost even 3 and 4 times what the Glock cost it was still a Glock 19 to which I trusted my life and that of my family when I strapped it on every day.

Why? Because of all the guns I ever owned they were hands down the most reliable, as a bonus they were also the most user friendly to operate and maintain and still worked extremely well even if not cleaned etc regularly.

 

By the time we left SA we had more Glocks in the house than any other handguns and they were all worked pretty hard and the only failure I ever had was on a rough 12 hour training course where after hand to hand combat on beach sand it had a ton of sand in it and the slide was not reciprocating well so not feeding properly, I stripped the slide off, wiped in the rails with my shirt and seconds later the gun was running like a dream. That gun had 10 000 rounds through it when I sold it and that was the only trouble I ever had, it’s still in use with a friend back in SA to this day.

My wife also carried a Glock and come to think of it so do about 90% of our friends.

 

Anyway I could go on but this could get very long.

If you have any other questions you can just shout.

I also have a friend who is a lady who owns a gun shop in SA that I can put you in touch with if you’d like a woman’s perspective too, she’d be very happy to help you out.

Thanks for your input what you said is very similar to what the instructor said.

 

I'll definitely be back with more questions and won't just buy and old firearm.. my husband keeps on asking have I decided and I keep on telling him no I haven't even fired a weapon yet and will first spend a lot of time at the range so that I can get a feel for what I will be comfortable with and actuallyknow what I am doing with a firearm...but it is very good to hear from people who know what they are talking about...

 

PS I have quite big hands.

Edited October 2, 2020 by Gen

[DJR]

A sideways question for Ghost:

 

Under which conditions would you recommend something simpler like a small frame snubbie .38 Special ?

[Help.Me.]

Thanks for your input what you said is very similar to what the instructor said.

I'll definitely be back with more questions and won't just buy and old firearm.. my husband keeps on asking have I decided and I keep on telling him no I haven't even fired a weapon yet and will first spend a lot of time at the range so that I can get a feel for what I will be comfortable with and actuallyknow what I am doing with a firearm...but it is very good to hear from people who know what they are talking about...

PS I have quite big hands.

Look at the Glock 43 for concealment, although limited magazine capacity, or Glock 26 which can use the bigger magazines for home defence....enjoy the shopping, we just went through this whole excercise, my wife and daughter got the 43 an me the 26....

[johnson]

I was running a gun shop in KZN when these launched. I was lucky enough to be invited up to Pretoria for their unveiling. We got a tour of the facility and spent time shooting the rifles. They were a great answer to the challenges involved in licensing semi autos, but I never really warmed to them.

Same here, it was a good solution back then though. You can now buy a pump action DM4 from Dave Sheer. Same as back then without a carbine competency. I Knew a toppie some years ago who owned a Ruger Mini-14. I Shot with it plenty of times. They are very good and reliable rifles. 

[johnson]

May as well ask here...you gius seem to know a LOT.

 

If say a person (me) would buy a handgun what handgun would be recommended.

 

Apparently it would make everyone feel better if I had a handgun as it's just the boys and me and we travel on our own quite a bit.

 

I am currently busy with all my competency..did the hours in the classroom, did the open book exams and aced the closed book exams..this weekend I start the practical side of things.

Hi Gen.

Ghost's post is really solid advice   

Personally I won't go smaller than a Glock 19 (even for a lady). It conceals pretty easy and good. Has 15 round magazine capacity and you can ad a +2 extension to have 17 rounds. G17 magazines also fits in it (of course sticking out a little bit) and don't forget about the 33 round happy sticks    Me and my wife both have G19's and we both carry them everyday. I Bought mine in '98 and it has fired thousands of rounds over the years. It's reliability has been 100% and I will recommend it to anybody who wants to buy a pistol.   

[ABrooks]

personally, I would recommend either the Glock 26 or the CZ P10s as a self defense pistol. Both have double stack magazines, meaning more ammo per magazine and they are smaller than their bigger brothers the Glock 19 and CZ P10C. Both can take the magazines of their bigger brothers for training or even as an extra mag. 

 

You will hear a lot of people recommend a .38 special for a woman, because they are supposed to be easier to maneuver and the old line of "you only need to shoot once so 5 rounds is more than enough". You will see a lot of videos on self defense where the guy only goes down after 4 or 5 shots and then he may not have been alone. Train with your weapon and know how to use and you will be fine.

[Gen]

Hi Gen.

Ghost's post is really solid advice [emoji106]

Personally I won't go smaller than a Glock 19 (even for a lady). It conceals pretty easy and good. Has 15 round magazine capacity and you can ad a +2 extension to have 17 rounds. G17 magazines also fits in it (of course sticking out a little bit) and don't forget about the 33 round happy sticks Me and my wife both have G19's and we both carry them everyday. I Bought mine in '98 and it has fired thousands of rounds over the years. It's reliability has been 100% and I will recommend it to anybody who wants to buy a pistol.

personally, I would recommend either the Glock 26 or the CZ P10s as a self defense pistol. Both have double stack magazines, meaning more ammo per magazine and they are smaller than their bigger brothers the Glock 19 and CZ P10C. Both can take the magazines of their bigger brothers for training or even as an extra mag.

 

You will hear a lot of people recommend a .38 special for a woman, because they are supposed to be easier to maneuver and the old line of "you only need to shoot once so 5 rounds is more than enough". You will see a lot of videos on self defense where the guy only goes down after 4 or 5 shots and then he may not have been alone. Train with your weapon and know how to use and you will be fine.

Thanks guys

 

 

I will have a good chat to many people and I will spend the hours getting used to shooting different firearms , get confidence and familiar with a handgun.

Edited October 2, 2020 by Gen

[The Ghost]

Oh I forgot to mention that access to spares, parts and accessories etc is also really important.

I once waited 8 months for a S&W recoil spring before giving up and selling the pistol because that kind of turn around wasn’t good for me. Likewise when I left I had a customer who had been waiting for CZ sights from the agent for around the same amount of time and they had still not arrived.

Sadly when the Cz agent changed their handguns sparing went to pieces in SA.

The Glock agent however is outstanding and I could typically get any parts within the time it took for the courier to get to me, and they’re easy to install.

 

Also many customers who went Sig, Walther and various other brands struggled to find things like holsters etc which is rather important.

 

The industry in SA is not like the US and you are not spoiled for choice with hoards of options available in abundance.

 

I wrote a general article on selecting a handgun a while ago, but since my website doesn’t exist anymore I’ll see if I have a copy on my laptop.

[Gen]

Oh I forgot to mention that access to spares, parts and accessories etc is also really important.

I once waited 8 months for a S&W recoil spring before giving up and selling the pistol because that kind of turn around wasn’t good for me. Likewise when I left I had a customer who had been waiting for CZ sights from the agent for around the same amount of time and they had still not arrived.

Sadly when the Cz agent changed their handguns sparing went to pieces in SA.

The Glock agent however is outstanding and I could typically get any parts within the time it took for the courier to get to me, and they’re easy to install.

 

Also many customers who went Sig, Walther and various other brands struggled to find things like holsters etc which is rather important.

 

The industry in SA is not like the US and you are not spoiled for choice with hoards of options available in abundance.

 

I wrote a general article on selecting a handgun a while ago, but since my website doesn’t exist anymore I’ll see if I have a copy on my laptop.

Thx yes these things are also important.

[The Ghost]

A sideways question for Ghost:

 

Under which conditions would you recommend something simpler like a small frame snubbie .38 Special ?

This was a bit of a giggle amongst the newer generation of us in the trade [emoji1]

With many older generation men in particular thinking that women are somehow less capable they often try and push women in that direction which made our eyes roll.

 

The only time I would suggest a revolver would be for people who are physically unable to operate a pistol usually die to strength issues.

It is also worth mentioning that I had some older women come to me claiming that they couldn’t rack a slide on a pistol due to lack of strength but when I showed them a better technique they were able to and over the moon.

 

Outside of sport or passion for the blasters I wouldn’t recommend them particularly for self defence, the limited number of rounds and time it takes to reload them being the biggest downsides.

Yes, they malfunction less but when they do you typically need a gunsmith to resolve it, with most pistol malfunctions you can resolve them yourself in seconds if you know how.