Giba Gorge Attack

[Bonus]

Harry thanks for outlining the law, very interesting. Just as a matter of interest, surely living in South Africa where violent crime is an hourly occurrence AND the common occurrence of victims being killed in robberies, it would be safe to assume that your life IS in danger, should someone try to relieve you of your possessions? Surely president has been set or at least can be argued that should you be in this position, your life is in imminent danger due to the high mortality rate in the violent nature of crimes in South Africa?

 

What on earth are you doing trying to apply common sense or logic to the law??

 

Solicitors heads may implode at any moment!

 

(and that's a world wide problem)

[Spez247]

The law is clear. The situation isn't, and is constantly changing.

 

I suspect that the cyclist doesn't have much to fear from the law (based on the little info given).

 

This isn't the Oscar P case, where the guy shot through a closed door, supossedly at an unidentified attacker. This was close quarters, 3 (or 2) against 1, and the assailants had the opportunity to back off too.

 

I just don't know why he would have gone after the guys, and left the bike he was protecting, behind...

 

Everything else adds up. Hope they drop the charges.

 

It also goes to show the damage a knife can do, if you assaulted by one of these guys. It doesn't sound like the cyclist got multiple stabs in. A well placed jab, or slash, does irrepairable damage.

[Nayr]

What on earth are you doing trying to apply common sense or logic to the law??

 

Solicitors heads may implode at any moment!

 

(and that's a world wide problem)

Haha thought I may be reaching a bit here....

[Odinson]

 

*snip *

 

5. The defence must be a reasonable response to the attack. The force used to defend against the attack must be proportional to the attack.  Excessive force will render the victim subject to prosecution 

 

*snip*

 

 

This is also a particularly grey area. It should always be considered in context.

 

If an unarmed 110kg male attacks a 45kg female with the intention to cause her physical harm, it could be considered reasonable if the femalel uses a firearm or orther deadly weapon to defend herself.

 

This "requirement" should not be construed to imply that you can only respond in kind to the weapon or means of force used by an attacker.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Odinson

[V12man]

You do realise this is the very pillar that private property rests on - the ability to protect one's ownership from unlawful interference by others, alternatively demand protection thereof by the state? So pray tell, should the police, faced with cash in transit robbers, home invaders, hijackers just blow their whistles really loudly and hope the criminals will pay heed and stop? What would a proportionate reaction be to a forceful taking of my possessions? Should I hope the guy doesn't fight back and engage him in hand to hand combat or should I pull my firearm, warn him appropriately and of he still insists on relieving me of my stuff, end the conflict in an immediate and safe (for me) manner? Pretty sure the law is with me there.

Why do you need to warn him? the law does not require such - please don't be nice - do what you need to do to WIN the fight, or run like hell....

 

Think what might happen if you are armed and decide to engage in hand to hand combat and you lose.... I guarantee you will be visiting me, one of my colleagues, or a mortuary pretty soon... quite probably both...

[RocknRolla]

I have not read the thread, only the really basic reporting on the matter.

 

I did read Harry's post and the posts after that.

 

I am wondering what type of self defense training or any other hand to hand combat training the defender had. And if any, what impact it may have on his legal defense.

Personally if i think about self defense on a bicycle, the last thing on my packing list is a sharp okapi...

 

However, as evident in the incident (with the limited info) the defender surprised the attackers, and clearly was very effective in dispatching the full might of the well wielded okapi.

 

Apologies if something similar was posted.

 

Edit: added some info to hopefully make my ramblings fathomable.

Edited September 6, 2016 by RocknRolla

[V12man]

This ..

 

There has been a lot of speculation in this thread, but it was by no means a Rambo type, calculated and perfectly executed defense that resulted in instant death.

There are many factors which resulted in the final outcome, and the person involved is in no way gung ho about anything.

I am not in any way speculating about what happened - the facts (or some version of them) will come out in the end, but I am on his side and happy to contribute to his defense if needed - although I sincerely hope for him it does not become a long drawn out saga.

[NickGM]

Quite right. Which is why I gave up my IPhone without a struggle. Still got a smack on the back of my head for my trouble but at least I was able to ride home afterwards. I had a feeling the 9mm in my face might not have any rounds in it but I didn't feel "lucky" that day.

 

When I wrote about the incident on the hub I had one guy respond saying he would track the phone, as I did, and then go sort the guy out. When I was less than enthusiastic about that idea he basically said I had no guts. I didn't think a drive to the wanderers street taxi rank to look for an armed criminal was my idea of a fun way to spend my Sunday afternoon. I think some people spend too much time watching action movies.

Well said. A friend of mine was shot through the leg during a mugging. Physically he made a full recovery but the Post Traumatic Stress affected him for years and damaged a number of relationships in his life. Prior to this he was a positive, emotionally stable and (I would say) very brave person. So for the cost of an iPhone, I would happily avoid all that. People that say they would have "sorted that guy out" are really just trying to project some fantasy version of themselves to other people on an online forum...which is pretty lame. 

[Stretch]

my sense is that this guy is going to spend many many years with trying and stressful legal proceedings. Will he be convicted..probably not..but the state will certainly not drop the charges

[RocknRolla]

Would love to hear if there are hubbers willing to post their experience from successfully defending their property AND the subsequent legal battle for taking a life...

[Harryn]

@harryn Thank you for the voice of reason. It is important to know what one should do in a situation like this.  Handing over one's valuables might be the better option in the long term, but that goes against the grain for many.

 

As you correctly stated, we don't know the facts of the Giba incident, so my question below does not refer to this incident.

 

If, in a hypothetical case, three armed men attacked a single cyclist and loudly stated their intention to kill him/her, would the victim be justified in assuming that the attackers meant to carry out their threats and hence use reasonable force to ward off the attack?

 

Yes, if within the parameters of the above guidelines.

 

But each case and circumstance is judged always on its own merits. So, hypothetically, using your example -  let's say that the armed attackers were hapless fools, who had no idea how to really use their kitchen knives. And let's say the victim, armed with a switch blade,  was a trained CIA assassin who specialises in hand to hand and knife combat, Chuck Norris style. Can he lawfully ice all 3 attackers, who are no match for him? 

[Odinson]

Yes, if within the parameters of the above guidelines.

 

But each case and circumstance is judged always on its own merits. So, hypothetically, using your example -  let's say that the armed attackers were hapless fools, who had no idea how to really use their kitchen knives. And let's say the victim, armed with a switch blade,  was a trained CIA assassin who specialises in hand to hand and knife combat, Chuck Norris style. Can he lawfully ice all 3 attackers, who are no match for him? 

 

And how is any victim to know that? How would I know whether a gun pointed at my face is real or not? Loaded or not? 

 

It's easy to judge these cases after the fact, but in reality you have mere seconds to react.

[Harryn]

Harry thanks for outlining the law, very interesting. Just as a matter of interest, surely living in South Africa where violent crime is an hourly occurrence AND the common occurrence of victims being killed in robberies, it would be safe to assume that your life IS in danger, should someone try to relieve you of your possessions? Surely president has been set or at least can be argued that should you be in this position, your life is in imminent danger due to the high mortality rate in the violent nature of crimes in South Africa?

I think its a good argument. You have the makings of a good defence advocate.

[Stretch]

Would love to hear if there are hubbers willing to post their experience from successfully defending their property AND the subsequent legal battle for taking a life...

 

I cant tell you personally...but my mother in law's neighbor (about 15 years ago) shot and killed a perpetrator who was in his house. the fatal shot was as he was diving out the windows that they broke to gain entry. At the time he was an oldish man (early 70s) and the court proceedings took 2 or 3 years. He was eventually found not guilty, but the whole proceedings ultimately ended his life as he died soon after

[Spoke101]

Would love to hear if there are hubbers willing to post their experience from successfully defending their property AND the subsequent legal battle for taking a life...

 

Not me personally but a friends dad. Short story, they live on a small holding and one evening they hear a noise go through to the lounge and someone is at the door trying to break in. Warning shots were fired and this guy keeps coming. Last round straight through the half broken door and between the eyes. Cops showed up and took all his firearms, few weeks later they were all returned and he was acquitted of any wrong doing.  

[Martin PJ]

Last year in Pinetown, a teenager was attacked by a housebreaker in his home. This was in the local papers. Despite pushing the panic button, the housebreaker continued with the break in, came through the roof. The youngster was stabbed in the arm, as well as slight head wound. The youngster stabbed the housebreaker multiple times with a kitchen knife and killed him. No charges laid.