conversations with a table mountain mugger - groundup article

[Slowbee]

I can't even decide for myself it was morally right or wrong to do, even less debate it on thehub - that is why I went for the fence sitting comment 

[Mamil]

Bragging - Jislaaik Robbie the balloon payment is coming up on that car next year and I'm already wondering about it ...

 

Not bragging - drawing attention to the absurdity of 1000 MTB riders with say an average spend of R30k on their bikes, some as much as 130k descending in luxury cars to ride for recreation when the majority of the population has nothing or has less to spend on housing, food, education etcetera than the cost of one of those bikes. That's all.

 

Noone's asking for an apology for being born privileged or to revoke being Afrikaans or Xhosa or English or whatever - merely to acknowledge that these accidents of birth and the access to privilege that they have afforded us play a role in determining our lives.

 

 

 

 

 

That first bit sounds like a brag...

That second highlight...I hope I read that wrong...(Cause it sounds a mighty lot like someone expecting me to regret two things, a) that I was born in privilege, and b) that I am a white Afrikaner...- I will pretend this is not the case - want ek is nie spyt nie. PUNT.

 

 

^^^DIE - (i.e. THIS, for the people who might think I meant die, as in dead...I typed in Afrikaans there...for all those who do not have the privileged upbringing of a circa 80's National Christian Education)

[Robbie Stewart]

http://rarehistoricalphotos.com/vulture-little-girl/

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Carter

 

 

 

EDIT:

http://all-that-is-interesting.com/kevin-carter

 

Kevin's story is a tragic one, indeed. It reminds me of the lashings handed out here in hubland to a certain degree. If we don't agree, we attack in self-justified rants.

 

I am not sure though that comparing what he did to this story on Norton's is really valid. My reason is, that yes, the girl was suffering, and yes, the moral thing to do (from a very self-righteous pulpit) would be to rush to her aid, but then what could he do? Her parents were already getting maize from the plane, and he could not "save" her by simply picking her up and rushing her to the UN plane. She was in an advanced state of malnutrition, which would require medical assistance. Should he have helped medically? Could he? Why did the UN not, then? Or did they? Did it help?

 

You see, when people lash out, like happened to Kevin, usually not all the possible outcomes are even considered.

 

Back to Norton's story. Kimon de Greeff, our intrepid journalist, chose to weigh up the pro's and cons of telling the cops of Norton. He decided that he may lose this guys trust, or perhaps Norton was lying (Personally, I think that this was meant to make himself "feel better", cause deep down he must be aware of his failure to society at large.)

 

So, in the interest of telling the story, he would let a known violent sociopath continue about his business.

 

And herein lies the issue for me. What if Norton murdered someone that time around? What about the trauma that the victims of his crime have to endure, for looooooong after Norton's next tik fix fades away? Is it justifiable to say that in a certain extent Kimon is guilty by association? Perhaps, perhaps not. I say let the courts decide.

 

I do not care to read the "story", or to be allowed behind the "veil" of a criminal element. This does NOT help society at large. It only emboldens journalists to go out and continue this absurd behavior. And in some perverted sense, makes the perpetrators feel justified, even "exalted by society" to carry on with their devious ways.

 

Pity the poor victims of their violence.

[BigDL]

Ha - I had a 1980's National Christian education. All it taught me was to fight against ignorant authority and propaganda. Would love to go back and give some of those ignorant little authoritarian jumped up little men with a cane and some power the kicking that they deserved. Not all of them were like that of course, but enough. *******

[BigDL]

Lol - I must have just discovered some ancient sore spot

[Robbie Stewart]

Bragging - Jislaaik Robbie the balloon payment is coming up on that car next year and I'm already wondering about it ...

 

Not bragging - drawing attention to the absurdity of 1000 MTB riders with say an average spend of R30k on their bikes, some as much as 130k descending in luxury cars to ride for recreation when the majority of the population has nothing or has less to spend on housing, food, education etcetera than the cost of one of those bikes. That's all.

 

Noone's asking for an apology for being born privileged or to revoke being Afrikaans or Xhosa or English or whatever - merely to acknowledge that these accidents of birth and the access to privilege that they have afforded us play a role in determining our lives.

 

I hear you Mamil, but to say that because I drive an expensive car, and live in a nice house in a nice suburb, is justification enough for Norton (or anyone who does not have what I do) to go about his daily crime spree?

 

is that not a bit far fetched?

 

Or is it meant as a means to make me feel guilty the next time I go for a pedal? Yes, there is a massive gap between rich and poor, but does that make the extreme behavior of a minority okay? 

 

Scenario: You go for a ride on the weekend on your 30k bike (which I am still drooling about, as I surely cannot chuck so much cash at a nice bike yet.) Norton is waiting for you, and tells you to lie down and hand over your 30k bike with your 1.4k tyres and your 7k GPS and your 12k iPhone 7. Are you going to feel better about it because you were relieved of your material wealth because you are a privileged upper-class white, by an under privileged, previously disadvantaged male pointing a gun at your face, or kid, or wife?

 

I would like to know how my being a privileged white was due their affording it to me? because you see, my dad worked himself ragged to give me what I have today. Not material wealth, but morals, intelligence, a good education, a functional family life, and all these matter, and contribute to make me who I am today. To say that this makes me a target for the Norton's of the world, because it's somehow my/our fault he CHOSE his lot in life, because tik was too easy and soccer was too hard, is a slap in my face, as well as that of my pa, who today carries the physical scars of the hard graft it took him to provide the best for his boys.

 

I do not have children, sadly. But will ANY father please stand up who will NOT do the same for their kids.

[Shebeen]

I started the thread under the "Cycling Safety" forum as I thought the article would raise comment on that. Expected some Hout Bay okes to talk about karbonkelberg, routes, hijacks etc. 

 

It has gone way beyond that, and from my little viewpoint, there is no easy solution to the complex socio economic mess we sit in. The best starting point for me is education, but that's not a short term one and we're going backwards anyway there.

 

Hout Bay is an interesting place, here are some of the ingredients:

Wealth. Poverty. Unemployment. Gangs. Immigrants. Overcrowding. Lack of services.

not surprising it's a melting pot.

 

it gave us this image

http://cdn.24.co.za/files/Cms/General/d/4017/09c9e0c8965b4b0c81f9b78bd11c63e2.jpg

 

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/these-photos-show-real-inequality-in-cape-town-20160525

 

go look at the recent election results

https://www.elections.org.za/LGEDashBoard2016/

Cape town ward 074.

you'll find hangberg is DA/ANC 68/24%

IY is 6/86%

the rest(AKA white larney areas), 

97/2%

 

Basically, it's probably got the largest GINI coefficient in the country.

 

I don't see this debate going anywhere, I'm interested in the moral issues facing the journalist (and one in which he/she is fully aware).

 

Ultimately the point has been made (and missed), no one is justifying Norton's actions.

[BigDL]

I hear you Mamil, but to say that because I drive an expensive car, and live in a nice house in a nice suburb, is justification enough for Norton (or anyone who does not have what I do) to go about his daily crime spree?

 

is that not a bit far fetched?

 

Or is it meant as a means to make me feel guilty the next time I go for a pedal? Yes, there is a massive gap between rich and poor, but does that make the extreme behavior of a minority okay?

 

Scenario: You go for a ride on the weekend on your 30k bike (which I am still drooling about, as I surely cannot chuck so much cash at a nice bike yet.) Norton is waiting for you, and tells you to lie down and hand over your 30k bike with your 1.4k tyres and your 7k GPS and your 12k iPhone 7. Are you going to feel better about it because you were relieved of your material wealth because you are a privileged upper-class white, by an under privileged, previously disadvantaged male pointing a gun at your face, or kid, or wife?

 

I would like to know how my being a privileged white was due their affording it to me? because you see, my dad worked himself ragged to give me what I have today. Not material wealth, but morals, intelligence, a good education, a functional family life, and all these matter, and contribute to make me who I am today. To say that this makes me a target for the Norton's of the world, because it's somehow my/our fault he CHOSE his lot in life, because tik was too easy and soccer was too hard, is a slap in my face, as well as that of my pa, who today carries the physical scars of the hard graft it took him to provide the best for his boys.

 

I do not have children, sadly. But will ANY father please stand up who will NOT do the same for their kids.

Absolutely agree with most of what you say. We all work hard to teach our kids right from wrong. However, if you did not, and in fact encouraged your kids constantly towards wrong, then the outcome may be different and we could understand HOW they got to where they got to in life. Please don't think this is an attempt to excuse their behaviour or to condone or justify it, but rather an attempt to understand the enemy that we face.

 

To quote the once great Massad Ayoob: "I never arrested someone I didn't feel sorry for, but that never stopped me arresting them".

[V12man]

Lol - I must have just discovered some ancient sore spot

Sounds like you need several years of twice a week analysis and therapy........

 

 

Just go ride your bike....

[mazambaan]

Eish Mamil; no need to get defensive and get into who has had the worst experience - I've been there; very, very close to losing a loved one to a Norton type.  My comment is "be the change you want to see". and "it starts with the individual".

 

You say:

 

"The solution is the diversion of resource from corrupt arms and business dealings and from the pockets of the wealthiest individuals, the top 10% which includes most of those on the forum and pumping these enormous resources into

 

1. Education -  most particularly - early childhood development programmes. The first 7 years are vital and the period where we lay down the neural circuitry that tells us what kind of world we are living in. Reworking of the disastrous outcomes based education initiative that built on the calamity and human rights abuse that was "Bantu education". Huge subsidy of tertiary education instead of tilting at nuclear windmills and signing corrupt arms deals.

 

 

2. Extended public works programmes that provide employment and skills development.

 

There isn't the money? There bloody well is - it's being wasted and misallocated at the moment."

 

Who is going to do this (I reckon you are aiming at government and I, for one, have zero faith in them) and lead by example - I am asking; what do you (you Mamil) do and suggest?

 

I am currently trying to give away, free gratis and for nothing, the cost of two high end bicycles to someone for their own house.  It has been 18 months of red tape and I am going to have to take the money back (it is in a lawyer's trust account), simply because some faceless Home Affairs ass cannot find some documents.  If that ass had a face I would go down there and harass them.  And that is for a "good" poor person; the Norton's - no one is going to help them (you?). Best solution may be jail and make government office furniture; for life.

 

So I say again; nothing is going to happen - how do we change the situation and keep those we care about safe?  My view; you want to ride, hike or swim in safety just about anywhere - emigrate.

[GrahamS2]

As horrific as these crimes are and as ghastly as it is to have endured them, until we realise that there is a connection between the fact that we are riding bikes that it costs more year on year to own and maintain than the huge majority of famllies have to feed, clothe and educate their children and then use that awareness to equip ourselves with ideologies and mechanisms to do something about that massive discrepancy, these crimes will continue.

 

It astonishes me that we privileged mountain bikers arrive at these rural locations for rides, are ushered around the course on our bikes, each of which costs more than the farm labourer marshalls might earn in that year and are apparently oblivious to the absurdity of our entitlement.

 

Yes I work work and no doubt so do you but it isn't hard work that separates me in my 250 grand car and my 40 grand bike and 3 grand of cycling clothes and my 1 grand camelback and the new bontragers at 1400 a set on the wheels - it is an accident of birth.

 

Misplaced sympathy - I feel sympathy for us all - for Norton, the psychopath that our society made, for myself and all that I've lost and dealt with in terms of crime against me, for all of us.

 

It's a horror story what's happening to us and I wish we could stop it.

So because the people Camps Bay spend more on bottled water than I earn in a year, can I just go and rob them because l feel ENTITLED to that?? If they flash their multi-million rand cars and expensive clothing around lower income suburbs does that ENTITLE other to steal from them? 

 

Trust me, none of these muggers are robbing people just to put bread on the table. It's a simple combination of greed, entitlement, and a complete lack of consequences (displayed in its purest form by the highest power in the country, Zuma).

[Skubarra]

So because the people Camps Bay spend more on bottled water than I earn in a year, can I just go and rob them because l feel ENTITLED to that?? 

 

No, and that is not what a single person on this thread is suggesting

[LazyTrailRider]

For crying out loud, almost every single counter to Mamil's explanation has used the "there is no justification for crime" line, even though Mamil (and those of us who grasp his line of reasoning) has several times stated unequivocally that *NO ONE IS JUSTIFYING ANY CRIME COMMITTED*.

 

Let me say that again, seeing as the previous instances didn't seem to stick.

 

*NO ONE IS JUSTIFYING ANY CRIME COMMITTED*

*NO ONE IS JUSTIFYING ANY CRIME COMMITTED*

 

We are *ATTEMPTING TO UNDERSTAND the origin of crime* in order to find long-term solutions. There is a difference. A very, very big difference.

['Dale]

Somewhat related:

 

Don't forget about the psychopathic types in silky suits, big German sedans and power boardrooms.

 

 

But, yeah, unless you've been exposed to crime-filled neighbourhoods and drug addicted neighbourhoods, you just won't have a frickin' clue.

[The expat cyclist]

. Basically, it's probably got the largest GINI coefficient in the country.

 

I don't see this debate going anywhere, I'm interested in the moral issues facing the journalist (and one in which he/she is fully aware).

 

Ultimately the point has been made (and missed), no one is justifying Norton's actions

Ok, I'll debate.

 

For me there should not really be a moral issue for the journo in this case.

What he did imo he did out of self interest.

 

Flip this around, say the journo spoke to the victims of Norton's crime BEFORE he interviewed Norton. I guarantee that the journo would have phoned the cops. The journo decided based on what he knew at the time. He knew there were victims but not who they were personally. As soon as you make a personal connection, outlooks change.

I dispute that the journo was fully aware. He wasn't. He couldn't be. He never had a personal connection with any of Norton's victims.

 

Our choices in live are not always our own. For the journo it was, for Norton it wasn't always. Some of Norton's choice got made for him.

[Serious Panda]

For crying out loud, almost every single counter to Mamil's explanation has used the "there is no justification for crime" line, even though Mamil (and those of us who grasp his line of reasoning) has several times stated unequivocally that *NO ONE IS JUSTIFYING ANY CRIME COMMITTED*.

 

Let me say that again, seeing as the previous instances didn't seem to stick.

 

*NO ONE IS JUSTIFYING ANY CRIME COMMITTED*

*NO ONE IS JUSTIFYING ANY CRIME COMMITTED*

 

We are *ATTEMPTING TO UNDERSTAND the origin of crime* in order to find long-term solutions. There is a difference. A very, very big difference.

 

The origin of crime is Satan the devil, the evil in man.