Interval training, TSS and Garmin Training Status

[Mamil]

I have recently started adding in short interval sessions into my training - one or two sessions a week - usually 4x4 repeats with 3 mins rest and sometimes 40/20 x 8 or 10.

 

The rides where I do intervals take me about an hour and 10 mins including a warm up and cool down.

 

I notice that if I don't do the interval and "just ride along" for an hour and 10 minutes,  I spend most of my time riding in the the threshold zone which I have come to understand does little to advance fitness.

 

Now in Training Peaks as well as the Elevate plugin, these "just riding along" outings, earn a higher TSS than the interval sessions and so accumulate more fatigue and push CTL up more. However, my Garmin watch shrugs it's wristbands, says "meh" and tells me that these just riding along rides are "Unproductive" while it rewards me with a nice "Productive" comment when I do the intervals.

 

Subjectively the intervals have made me stronger and faster which I'm loving but I'm puzzled as to why TSS for interval sessions is lower than the just riding along rides.

 

Whew - feel like I'm making heavy weather of this post but I'm going to push through - pretend it's an interval.

 

My question is -- does the relatively lower TSS score for my interval session mean that my intervals are not hard enough? My legs are tired after the sessions but I'm not completely broken. Does this mean I should add in more repeats? Has anybody else noticed this?

 

 

[fanievb]

are your threshold values set correctly (and standard throughout)

I found on my garmin I had to manually change and align the values to the calculations used in TP

[shaper]

Probably true assessment, continual riding at threshold will likely have a higher TTS but with minimal impact on the muscle power but will improve the metabolic fitness and muscle endurance.

 

Your intervals will work you harder to increase your muscle power, especially with your over/unders (40/20), but your recovery (20) will be in Zone 1 and not Zone 2/3, and your recoveries between sets will be Z1/Z2, so the overall TSS for a similar time period will be less.  The benefit is that you are improving your muscle power and fast twitch muscles doing the intervals, which will make you stronger and faster.

 

Chasing CTL should not be your goal in training, but to monitor this against ATL and TSB.

[lechatnoir]

Garmin seems wacky... train my butt off for days and it comes back with 'unproductive'... seems that intervals.icu and elevate are better indicators of where my training is headed. so far, they're coming back with a unanimous 'nowhere'...

[RocknRolla]

Are you using a power meter or only HR data?

 

HR Data has a number of factors that has an impact, such as fatigue, temperature stress etc.

When doing longer rides, you also experience HR drift as you fatigue, you still may feel "strong" or "normal" but your body is working harder to maintain the level of exertion...

[Mamil]

Thanks for replies. Both TP and Connect had correct ftp value but the zone numbers were pretty significantly different so I've made them correspond using tje garmin values. We shall see what that does.

 

I am using a powermeter for the intervals so I am.comparing apples with apples from day to day.

 

@lechatnoir ... well i wouldn't say nowhere... Sunday's ride was long and lumpy.

[shaper]

TSS between Trainingpeaks and Garmin will be calculated differently even if you set the zones the same

 

https://help.trainingpeaks.com/hc/en-us/articles/204070234-Why-is-there-a-difference-in-my-data-between-Garmin-Connect-and-TrainingPeaks-

[J Wakefield]

You want the quality in the interval durations - ie 4min or the 40:20 set. The recovery you want very easy and not ride tempo or just below Threshold. Reason is you want to recover fully and hit those high numbers consistently and create the stress needed for progression. If you not doing that, you won't progress.

Don't worry about what a overall TSS or IF is for the session, there so many variables that take this into account like how hard or easy you warm up and down and what your recovery is between. This is the 1 problem I have with TP software.

What I suggest is for the 40:20 set for example highlight that 10min effort it should be a IF of 1 and up depending on your settings or numbers, if that is right you hit the set correctly. 

Bang for buck, 40:20's are an awesome return on fitness investment. 

My .34c

[Mamil]

I must say that since I started the intervals, although my CTL number has remained more or less the same, I feel stronger. I haven't done any objective measures (another FTP test or pursued specific PRs on specific segments) but I definitely notice I can hold big efforts for longer.

 

And the intervals although initially unpleasant, have an addictive quality to them. 

 

I am about 4 or 5 years in to my cycling "career" (a grandiose term for the road and MTB noodling I do) and definitely noticed a plateau in my fitness despite a large volume of riding. Now I'm actively pursuing the noddy badge of "productive" on Garmin rather than getting my jollies from the CTL graph which has been rather asymptotic of late.

 

40/20s tomorrow on the strength of this recommendation - one set of them to the top of the nek and another shorter one up suikerbossie - in the dark - don't mock the suffering mamil.

 

 

 

You want the quality in the interval durations - ie 4min or the 40:20 set. The recovery you want very easy and not ride tempo or just below Threshold. Reason is you want to recover fully and hit those high numbers consistently and create the stress needed for progression. If you not doing that, you won't progress.

Don't worry about what a overall TSS or IF is for the session, there so many variables that take this into account like how hard or easy you warm up and down and what your recovery is between. This is the 1 problem I have with TP software.

What I suggest is for the 40:20 set for example highlight that 10min effort it should be a IF of 1 and up depending on your settings or numbers, if that is right you hit the set correctly. 

Bang for buck, 40:20's are an awesome return on fitness investment. 

My .34c

[J Wakefield]

I must say that since I started the intervals, although my CTL number has remained more or less the same, I feel stronger. I haven't done any objective measures (another FTP test or pursued specific PRs on specific segments) but I definitely notice I can hold big efforts for longer.

 

And the intervals although initially unpleasant, have an addictive quality to them. 

 

I am about 4 or 5 years in to my cycling "career" (a grandiose term for the road and MTB noodling I do) and definitely noticed a plateau in my fitness despite a large volume of riding. Now I'm actively pursuing the noddy badge of "productive" on Garmin rather than getting my jollies from the CTL graph which has been rather asymptotic of late.

 

40/20s tomorrow on the strength of this recommendation - one set of them to the top of the nek and another shorter one up suikerbossie - in the dark - don't mock the suffering mamil.

 

 

Remember that CTL is a volume based metric so unless you pump it with data and more data there will always be a plateau for us normal folk, this however does not mean your fitness is not improving at all, it will still improve the more you train and recover and have that balance right. 

 

If you are on the SS side as you mentioned Nek, go and smash Price Drive. Its quiet, is Mal steep and its quality for training and you will also more than likely find another or more should destroying themselves there.

[davidtinker]

Its easy to see the limitations of TSS if you consider than 1h flat out TT should be 100 TSS and thats the same as 2h of toddling around at 50 TSS/h. Not the same in the legs!

[Frosty]

I got this bit of advise a number of years ago, which after using Google I found the exact wording (from Joe Friel's blog).

 

A general rule is that when working on developing the cardiovascular/aerobic endurance system RI are kept short. When working on the nervous and muscular systems the RI are long. Also, over the course of several weeks of doing a particular type of interval workout it’s common for the RI to either get shorter or become slightly more intense. The reason for this is to more closely simulate the stresses of the race for which you are preparing where there are unlikely to be low-intensity, long-duration recoveries between hard efforts.

 

*RI = Recovery Intervals

 

A lot of my training has been based on this principle, and it's worked for me. Maybe not the best, but certainly not a waste of time - I was able to keep up in all road races I did in the Vets bunch. I say keep up, not compete for the sprint - there's a big difference. 

Over the years I never bothered too much with the metrics, as work and family life always resulted in a spanner in the works at some point in the 12 week training block.

[mecheng89]

Screw TSS, IF, CTL. 

 

It's all about RPE. If the workout felt tough, you'll get stronger. If the workout felt too easy, you're not getting stronger (if it's not a recovery spin or endurance ride). TSS, IF, CTL are all parameters to quantify a workout. But if you felt you suffered, then all the better. 40/20s are the devil, but oh so effective.

 

Don't read into the numbers too much, you'll drown in them. 

[Mamil]

Tore myself away from someone soft and warm to do battle with the cold and hard pre-dawn for 2 hours including 15 x 40/20 which made me feel virtuous and nauseous and got rewarded with another "Productive" noddy badge by my watch - small things and small minds.

 

Price Drive next week.