nous sommes de la m$$$e à vélo *

[Shebeen]

Why are the French so crap at Grand tours?  *(my google translate in title)

The last french winner of the TdF is..Bernard hinault in 1985. Fignon won the giro in '89 and (an EPO fueled) Jalabert la Vuelta in '95. it's been 78 misses since a french rider was on the top step of a GT podium.

They have the biggest race, which they load with their own riders (and even try tailor it to their top stars on occasion). They regularly have more than double the amount of riders than the second most represented nation. - play here https://www.procyclingstats.com/race/tour-de-france/2021/gc/startlist/riders-per-nation

But that's probably not it, Italy load their riders even more so at the Giro, and Vuelta has a spanish lean (although more frenchies in '15 and '16 https://www.procyclingstats.com/race/vuelta-a-espana/2015/startlist/riders-per-nation).

Sure there have been some second places, but a miss is as good as a mile here and the ones in recent memory seem nowhere close to that level. I don't see it happening for Bardet or Pinot in the future, and the next in line is hard to even identify. They have won other stuff, (but only 3 monuments this century)

Sure there have been some riders tearing themselves into pieces to stay in yellow, most notably Alaphilippe and Voeckler(twice), but they would have been shock winners in Paris.  In the other GTs, no french rider has worn the maglia rosa or the maillot rojo beyond the first rest day this century. 

Maybe they put too much focus on the TDF itself? Maybe they have too many medium budget teams and can't compete with the Ineos/Jumbo squads with superdoms?

I reckon the answer is not that difficult.  There is just SO much pressure on the next big thing to do it, that they just can't handle it - no one could. Once someone breaks this duck, the floodgates could open.

 

 

 

Edited September 6, 2021 by Shebeen
excuse my french

[Jbr]

Hey don't swear !

your translation says "why are we so **** at cycling", not specifically at grand tours. I don't think we are doing too bad at cycling in general, especially considering how few people you see on bikes on the roads in the morning...

And it doesn't matter how many frenchies you put on the start line, if none of them is Pogacar or Roglic.

The big question here is how the hell Slovenia has only two top riders but they are so good ? 

Edited September 6, 2021 by Jbr

[Shebeen]

7 minutes ago, Jbr said:

Hey don't swear !

your translation says "why are we so **** at cycling", not specifically at grand tours. I don't think we are doing too bad at cycling in general, especially considering how few people you see on bikes on the roads in the morning...

ah yes. google translate only gets you so far and the other options just didn't have the panache one expected. edited if it was offensive

Yes i am looking at grand tours specifically. BUT monuments - there was a gap from 1998 to 2015 with no french winner of a monument.

off road, different story!

 

[Mountain Bru]

35 minutes ago, Jbr said:

The big question here is how the hell Slovenia has only two top riders but they are so good ? 

Slovenia also has Mohoric, Tratnik, Polank, Mezgec.... 

Pog and Rog are the poster boys, but Mohoric is currently ranked 8th on UCI points. Not bad for a country with a population less than half of the Western Cape that's probably covered in snow for half of the year. 

[Jbr]

Damn, now everybody knows I know nothing about bike racing ???? I knew I was taking a risk stating this about Slovenia

@Shebeenno offense taken, I also don't understand how we are doing so bad either

Edited September 6, 2021 by Jbr

[Shebeen]

6 minutes ago, Mountain Bru said:

Slovenia also has Mohoric, Tratnik, Polank, Mezgec.... 

Pog and Rog are the poster boys, but Mohoric is currently ranked 8th on UCI points. Not bad for a country with a population less than half of the Western Cape that's probably covered in snow for half of the year. 

Insane indeed, but i doubt there is anything they are doing differently for other countries to follow/adopt.

 

[Mountain Bru]

On why the French can't win a GT....

I'm sure the pressure is a big factor, but I think it's also self inflicted by the French being so overly, almost delusionally, patriotic, especially lately when they just don't have great GC riders. 

Out of interest, I looked up when last a Belgian rider won a GT, and found out it was 43 years ago in 1978! (https://pezcyclingnews.com/interviews/the-last-belgian-grand-tour-winner-johan-de-muynck-interview/).

That's almost more shocking for me than the French considering the strength of Belgian cycling, but it doesn't seem to get as much airtime. I've never heard anyone talking about WVA or Remco as the rider that can break the drought for Belgium, but that's often said about Bardet, Pinot, Allaphalipe, maybe even Gaudu. 
 

The fact that this is even a thing for me point's towards a very French way of thinking that they even should be winning GTs. Like I get the feeling that they legitimately think that they're a superior cycling nation and so they should be winning every GT, and so there's this whole no French GC wins thing. I don't think that's the norm in other countries. 

I remember being in France a few years ago and lots of the Frenchies I spoke to genuinely believed that Peugot, Renault and Citroen were the best cars you could buy, and were better than a VW or BMW etc. Clearly that's absolute delusion, and I think they apply the same thinking to their cyclists and then expect them to win everything. 

Edited September 6, 2021 by Mountain Bru

[Mountain Bru]

13 minutes ago, Jbr said:

Damn, now everybody knows I know nothing about bike racing ???? I knew I was taking a risk stating this about Slovenia

@Shebeenno offense taken, I also don't understand how we are doing so bad either

As long as you don't confuse Slovenia and Slovakia, and start thinking that Sagan and Roglic are gonna be on the same team at the World Champs, you're ahead of half the cycling world ????

[DieselnDust]

47 minutes ago, Shebeen said:

ah yes. google translate only gets you so far and the other options just didn't have the panache one expected. edited if it was offensive

Yes i am looking at grand tours specifically. BUT monuments - there was a gap from 1998 to 2015 with no french winner of a monument.

off road, different story!

 

a monument or a Grand tour?

 

last time i check Julien Alaphillipe was still French as Slovenia is currently reviewing his citizenship application

[Shebeen]

20 hours ago, DieselnDust said:

a monument or a Grand tour?

 

last time i check Julien Alaphillipe was still French as Slovenia is currently reviewing his citizenship application

What Monument did JAP win between 1998 and 2015?

[Mamil]

20 hours ago, Mountain Bru said:

On why the French can't win a GT....

I'm sure the pressure is a big factor, but I think it's also self inflicted by the French being so overly, almost delusionally, patriotic, especially lately when they just don't have great GC riders. 

Out of interest, I looked up when last a Belgian rider won a GT, and found out it was 43 years ago in 1978! (https://pezcyclingnews.com/interviews/the-last-belgian-grand-tour-winner-johan-de-muynck-interview/).

That's almost more shocking for me than the French considering the strength of Belgian cycling, but it doesn't seem to get as much airtime. I've never heard anyone talking about WVA or Remco as the rider that can break the drought for Belgium, but that's often said about Bardet, Pinot, Allaphalipe, maybe even Gaudu. 
 

The fact that this is even a thing for me point's towards a very French way of thinking that they even should be winning GTs. Like I get the feeling that they legitimately think that they're a superior cycling nation and so they should be winning every GT, and so there's this whole no French GC wins thing. I don't think that's the norm in other countries. 

I remember being in France a few years ago and lots of the Frenchies I spoke to genuinely believed that Peugot, Renault and Citroen were the best cars you could buy, and were better than a VW or BMW etc. Clearly that's absolute delusion, and I think they apply the same thinking to their cyclists and then expect them to win everything. 

My cousin is a mechanic and often he will be under some Peugeot turning the air blue with his opinion of french engineers. Also whenever I see a Renault duster I can't help but think the french are playing a joke on us because with those bars on the top it genuinely looks like on outsized dustbuster.

And although I loved France when I holidayed there a while back and find the language exquisite (and the way the women dress is exceptional) I do think you're onto something about the national temperament when you say they  have an almost unquestioned assumption that they SHOULD be winning most of the time.

[100Tours]

I've always felt that the French issue is more fundamental - they're more interested in the spectacle that the sport. JAP (and ChouChou before him) styles himself as a break-away rider/stage winner (lose time early, get lots of time on TV) rather than a GC contender. You might conclude it is part of being French. The Belgians are another story, but perhaps in their defence they may consider the classics to be more true to cycling than the grand tours. 

I rode the RVV and Roubaix sportifs a few years back. The Belgian race had 20,000 participants, it was timed from start to finish, tons of Belgian riders and all of Oudenaarde had shown up for the party at the finish. The French race had 4000 entries, they had 2 timed segments of about 1km each over a 160km course, and I'd guess that all of about 4 French riders had shown up. Religion vs. reality TV.

[Jewbacca]

I'm a Monuments and Spring Classics over GT bike watcher, so having had the pleasure of watching Jala over the last few years has been gold. 

In my very humble, uninformed opinion, I don't think they will win one for a good number of years too. One of the things that has changed with the on set of professionalism in it's current guise is talent selection globally. 

Guys are being picked up, spotted, tested and those with the bendable/tuneable genetics are then brought through the various systems.

It means that the margins at the top are getting closer and closer, hard work, passion, panache and grit no longer gets you ahead as it once did as everyone has all of that in spades as well as supreme genes and a scientific training programme. 

I just don't think the French have that 'at all cost' mentality to combine all of that. History shows that they aren't a fight to the end give it everything kinda nation.... 

Edited September 7, 2021 by Jewbacca

[DieselnDust]

3 hours ago, Shebeen said:

What Monument did JAP win between 1998 and 2015?

Who cares about 1998 to 2015….

that’s history. Every nation goes through dry spells. That period also coincides with a fairly prominent doping era so maybe the French just played more fair after Festina…

there’s also an economic aspect to consider. Eastern European athletes arrived on the scene in droves at lower cost. French sponsors left the sport and the number of french team’s dwindled providing fewer opportunities to french riders. Less money, fewer top athletes. What was the french cycling federations performances like in track at the olympics and world champs over the last 20years?

 

[NickGM]

On 9/6/2021 at 11:57 AM, Mountain Bru said:

I remember being in France a few years ago and lots of the Frenchies I spoke to genuinely believed that Peugot, Renault and Citroen were the best cars you could buy, and were better than a VW or BMW etc. Clearly that's absolute delusion, and I think they apply the same thinking to their cyclists and then expect them to win everything. 

I agree about the vehicles, but disagree about the national belief that they deserve to be winning cycling events. In my experience that mentality in many sports has been the English ("Football's coming home", and the usual "where did it all go wrong?" when they lose to a better cricket/rugby/football team). 

No, if anything the opposite is true of the french. There is a cultural awareness in france that they'd almost rather lose beautifully than win. I say almost. They're happy with losing beautifully. I'm not saying I agree with these sorts of sweeping cultural generalizations, but it is something other people believe in and it is "a thing" (zeitgeist? I dunno, I'm sure there's a better word for it). It even has a name that it got from our very sport: Poulidor syndrome. They loved the guy that never won. And the few frenchies I've spoken to about the 1995 RWC semi final (remember that drowning hazard mudfest in durban?) got tearful talking about it because they thought it was so amazing. 

So maybe it's their acceptance that losing can be cool too. But this is just my opinion. They don't want to be the people to win ugly. And the level of crazy obsession you need to win the TdF can get ugly. 

I don't know where their football team went "wrong" though. 

[Shebeen]

On 9/6/2021 at 11:57 AM, Mountain Bru said:

On why the French can't win a GT....

I'm sure the pressure is a big factor, but I think it's also self inflicted by the French being so overly, almost delusionally, patriotic, especially lately when they just don't have great GC riders. 

Out of interest, I looked up when last a Belgian rider won a GT, and found out it was 43 years ago in 1978! (https://pezcyclingnews.com/interviews/the-last-belgian-grand-tour-winner-johan-de-muynck-interview/).

That's almost more shocking for me than the French considering the strength of Belgian cycling, but it doesn't seem to get as much airtime. I've never heard anyone talking about WVA or Remco as the rider that can break the drought for Belgium, but that's often said about Bardet, Pinot, Allaphalipe, maybe even Gaudu. 

That is a very good point. Andy Schleck won as a Luxembourger, which is like sort of belgian but not really. 

Belgiyum also seem to have loads of riders at every grand tour but not at the pointy end. podium results also very rare since the eddy merckx era.

some outliers like thomas de gent getting a 3rd in the Giro Hesjedal won (must have been some crazy breakaway) https://www.procyclingstats.com/race/giro-d-italia/2022/gc/history, Jurgen vd Broek a 3rd at the TdF where he was originally 5th in Paris, and Lance's DS in the 90s on EPO at the vuelta.

but as you say, they are more into classics, and there was a spot for 4 years where no belgian won a monument recently, I wonder if the papers had articles on that when PhilGil broke the duck?