Loadshedding solutions

[Frosty]

https://mybroadband.co.za/news/energy/422098-how-much-it-costs-to-run-a-generator-for-load-shedding.html

 

[splat]

3 hours ago, Frosty said:

You will need to compare the costs over the useful lifecycle of the batteries, to get a better idea of gennie vs solar.

Capital outlay:
R200k - 8kW inverter and 10kWh of battery backup
R30k - 8kW generator

Average household would spend R400-600 per month on diesel;
Spend R1200-R1800 on electricity.

With a R200k setup, the electricity spend will be minimal on the lousy days.

Multiply the average by 10 years and you get R240k (including generator cost). That’s without any increase in costs, and also not servicing the generator. I heard the service cost is not cheap.

 

That's pretty much how I saw it play out.
But that isn't taking into account having to replace a battery or two over the 10 years.

[splat]

On 2/9/2023 at 2:28 PM, splat said:

I have a small inverter and battery set-up that I need to have connected to the DB. This would be to run lights, my PC, Wi Fi, house alarm etc.

The electrician needs cable that aren't in stock and is being vague about what is required.
The cables would run 4m from the garage to the DB (and back again).

I will upgrade the inverter in the near future, so will 'oversize' the cables for this installation.

Can anyone tell me what I need ?
Perhaps I get those cables for him so that he can get going .

I finally got this sorted last week.
What a difference this makes!

The little batteries take a beating during stage 6, so will have to look at getting 2 more while we look at getting a bigger system.

[Frosty]

31 minutes ago, splat said:

That's pretty much how I saw it play out.
But that isn't taking into account having to replace a battery or two over the 10 years.

True, but then the calculation starts again comparing the cost (over the lifespan) of the batteries to the consumption of diesel/electricity. The inverter and panels will last longer, so the cost of the batteries will be negligible compared to the ongoing cost of fuel and electricity. It actually favours solar (providing loadshedding is still here in 10 years).

Solar isn’t a quick win; it’s the endurance of power generating.

[The Ouzo]

10 minutes ago, Frosty said:

True, but then the calculation starts again comparing the cost (over the lifespan) of the batteries to the consumption of diesel/electricity. The inverter and panels will last longer, so the cost of the batteries will be negligible compared to the ongoing cost of fuel and electricity. It actually favours solar (providing loadshedding is still here in 10 years).

Solar isn’t a quick win; it’s the endurance of power generating.

Also I have my doubts that the 30k generator will still be running and serviceable in 10 year should the continued loadshedding continue

[splat]

I think that load shedding will be around for a while longer. At least 10 years.
Perhaps the generator is a quick victory, but solar takes the win over a long war.

This reminds me of my Nespresso vs Espresso machine conversation.
Nespresso was quick out the gates with initial costs, but slowly lost to a grinder and espresso kit over a few years as the pods got more expensive.
The pods quickly became undrinkable as the novelty wore off.

[Hairy]

20 hours ago, Hairy said:

Sooo ... any of you riff raff using a Synapse 600W Sine inverter?

We got one for my home office (Running PC, monitors, Interwebs McGuyer that brings and distributes the world wide web in our house) about a year and a half ago with a 12v 100Ah Lead Acid battery.

The ACDC guy notes that the Synapse 600W inverter that I have has a rather good charging capacity at 20Amp at 50hertz, so this would be able to accommodate a Li battery. Seeing as this is not being paid with the change found “under the sofa” I want to make 100% certain via another source (THAT IS WHERE YOU RIFF RAFF COME IN) if the Synapse 600 can really charge up the Li batteries.

 Short term the LA battery will work, but given the short recharge cycles and then the usage after not having a full charge will kill the battery again in a short period of time. The 100Ah Li battery would be the better solution given the above.

 If one looks at going larger with the LA battery at 200Ah, you are at the same price as a 100Ah battery, with double the energy capacity where in theory after a long discharge would still leave a reasonable % of charge in the battery which hopefully will help with it’s life span. The Li though will charge up very quickly and more efficiently, and be ready for the next stage of load shedding.

1^st prize (Following alternative confirmation that it can charge Li) would be the 100Ah Li battery.

2^nd, the 200Ah LA battery … given the price, you may as well go Li 100Ah

3^rd , would be the 100Ah LA battery.

 

The info I can find on the inverter so far
https://www.solarpanelenergy.co.za/p/982764/600w-12v-synapse-ups-inverter

 

This battery is kaput, and I am looking at alternatives as per the following:

Anyone?

[Frosty]

1 hour ago, The Ouzo said:

Also I have my doubts that the 30k generator will still be running and serviceable in 10 year should the continued loadshedding continue

I guess it depends who’s running and maintaining it. I look at my company, and the wasteful spending on diesel, and a generator; all to keep the lights (read: IT system) on.

They would have paid back the solar on 3 months, maybe 4.

[The Ouzo]

12 minutes ago, Frosty said:

I guess it depends who’s running and maintaining it. I look at my company, and the wasteful spending on diesel, and a generator; all to keep the lights (read: IT system) on.

They would have paid back the solar on 3 months, maybe 4.

companies generally have more commercial use gennies. Built to last longer and do heavier lifting, but there comes a time when parts become hard or impossible to find.

We have been without a gennie at work for abotu 6 weeks now because we are waiting for certain parts where the gennie tech has not been able to mcgyver the thing

[ichnusa]

Apart from the financial benefits of solar over the long run, I feel people who have the financial means, have the environmentally moral "obligation" to choose solar.  Generators are noisy and smelly!

[PhilipV]

On 2/27/2023 at 6:45 PM, Hairy said:

Sooo ... any of you riff raff using a Synapse 600W Sine inverter?

We got one for my home office (Running PC, monitors, Interwebs McGuyer that brings and distributes the world wide web in our house) about a year and a half ago with a 12v 100Ah Lead Acid battery.

The ACDC guy notes that the Synapse 600W inverter that I have has a rather good charging capacity at 20Amp at 50hertz, so this would be able to accommodate a Li battery. Seeing as this is not being paid with the change found “under the sofa” I want to make 100% certain via another source (THAT IS WHERE YOU RIFF RAFF COME IN) if the Synapse 600 can really charge up the Li batteries.

 Short term the LA battery will work, but given the short recharge cycles and then the usage after not having a full charge will kill the battery again in a short period of time. The 100Ah Li battery would be the better solution given the above.

 If one looks at going larger with the LA battery at 200Ah, you are at the same price as a 100Ah battery, with double the energy capacity where in theory after a long discharge would still leave a reasonable % of charge in the battery which hopefully will help with it’s life span. The Li though will charge up very quickly and more efficiently, and be ready for the next stage of load shedding.

1^st prize (Following alternative confirmation that it can charge Li) would be the 100Ah Li battery.

2^nd, the 200Ah LA battery … given the price, you may as well go Li 100Ah

3^rd , would be the 100Ah LA battery.

 

The info I can find on the inverter so far
https://www.solarpanelenergy.co.za/p/982764/600w-12v-synapse-ups-inverter

 

This battery is kaput, and I am looking at alternatives as per the following:

I'll take a stab. 

The 20a inverter can only charge at 20, wether it's into a lithium or a SLA battery. So in 4hrs of charging it will put back 80s, irrespective o wether it's into 100aH LiPo or 200aH SLA. 

Now here is where my knowledge gets shaky, but Lithium batteries charge at a different profile and higher volts than SLA, so an inverter originally specced for SLA won't be charging the Li optimally or even correctly, possibly damaging it? I think the salesman is talking porky pies. But you'll need to do some research on it. 

Methinks you are asking too much of your system. 

Left fuels idea:

Buy the 100aH battery, and add a solar panel and solar charger to it, that way when it's loadshedding the battery is charging and solar can even carry the load. 

[Bloumens]

Recently had an less than great experience with insurance to have a inverter replaced after my solar system was struck by lightning. 

When I lodged the claim the insurance told me that their "in-house reports" indicate that there was no lightning during the period specified and that they will thus not be paying the claim 🤨

With knowing that their "reports" were wrong I went out to gather proof of severe lighting storms and sent it back to them.  With the independent evidence provided, they concluded that their "reports" were not correct and eventually paid the claim.

Just thought I'd share this info, should someone else have a similar situation.

[Duane_Bosch]

On 2/28/2023 at 9:07 AM, splat said:

(apart from  the neighbours)

My across the road neighbors have a generator. And they say it's the worst thing they ever did. It's loud for us. I can't imagine how terrible it must be for them. 

[Hairy]

On 3/4/2023 at 11:26 AM, PhilipV said:

I'll take a stab. 

The 20a inverter can only charge at 20, wether it's into a lithium or a SLA battery. So in 4hrs of charging it will put back 80s, irrespective o wether it's into 100aH LiPo or 200aH SLA. 

Now here is where my knowledge gets shaky, but Lithium batteries charge at a different profile and higher volts than SLA, so an inverter originally specced for SLA won't be charging the Li optimally or even correctly, possibly damaging it? I think the salesman is talking porky pies. But you'll need to do some research on it. 

Methinks you are asking too much of your system. 

Left fuels idea:

Buy the 100aH battery, and add a solar panel and solar charger to it, that way when it's loadshedding the battery is charging and solar can even carry the load. 

Thanks

just got a quote for this solution

[-cK-]

Loving the zero Eskom import the last 3 days since my upgrade...

Also busy with intergrating the inveter sensors to HA now that I've found a solution to pulling in the sensor data so I can use it as parameters for my other smart devices like my geyser switch.  Ultimatly want to drop the geyser on essential supply and just set some parameters to ensure if it is loadshedding and there is enough SOC and PV the geyser can be turned on despite it being loadshedding and only if it is a 💩 day and the SOC and PV is to low wait for Eskom before turning it one...

[i24]

On 2/27/2023 at 6:45 PM, Hairy said:

 If one looks at going larger with the LA battery at 200Ah, you are at the same price as a 100Ah battery, with double the energy capacity where in theory after a long discharge would still leave a reasonable % of charge in the battery which hopefully will help with it’s life span. The Li though will charge up very quickly and more efficiently, and be ready for the next stage of load shedding.

 

1^st prize (Following alternative confirmation that it can charge Li) would be the 100Ah Li battery.

2^nd, the 200Ah LA battery … given the price, you may as well go Li 100Ah

3^rd , would be the 100Ah LA battery.

I have not checked if anybody else replied to this. But I have a 24V 3kVA, "non Li compatible" inverter at home. I have 4 100Ah lead acid batteries on it. It was sized for 2 100Ah batteries but I had 2 more used ones on hand so wired the 2nd pair in parallel. Our load is modest, just computers, TV and LED lights (120W to 250W). I have had no problems over about 5 months of heavy load shedding. Doubling the batteries in parallel allows, more capacity, lower depth of discharge and faster recharge. I have also set the cut off voltage to be about 40% of LA discharge to protect the batteries but we have never got it that low.

In the office we have UPS systems, also running on Lead Acid, These have been around for 10 years or more. We have got up to 7 years on a set of batteries - but we also have a diesel generator so the batteries do not have a hard life.

I looked at buying Lithium batteries for the last UPS replacements. But the 100Ah "LA Compatible" Lithium batteries were actually "2nd life" (ie 2nd hand) and more expensive than a new dedicated Li 48V unit.  The modern kit has smart comms between the battery and the inverter, this can optimise the charge cycle and battery protection. The old LA inverters and UPS's only measure the battery voltage and adjust charge behaviour to that. I suspect this does not allow full use of the available capacity of Li batteries. Also the LA charger's max voltage might not be enough to reach 100% charge in LI batteries. Maybe someone who has experience with "LA compatible Li" batteries on old generation inverters can comment.

As a rule of thumb, measure your load and estimate your required battery capacity. Then double the capacity. And if your using lead acid, double it again.

Get a gas stove for the kitchen and solar for the hot water. Use utility power for the rest of the kitchen and hot water. Also in the garage and for "hot" appliances like hair dryers. This allows 85% family convenience without spending many R100 000's.

I am not convinced that solar panels are cost effective verses a pure inverter setup (but this will change). My experience with solar geysers is that available solar energy drops off from the beginning of May to the end of August.