How to: first stage race.

[Spinnekop]

 

50 minutes ago, bleedToWin said:

A banana has enough carbs for 15 minutes of fuel.
Maybe you've been cycling for a while, but never hard enough or long enough to have bonked, and since you haven't done multi day events you haven't noticed how seriously you are under-fueling. 

Serious question wrt to the above statement.

I have done a couple of stage race events over the past 28 years......and I have almost ALWAYS seen people stuff food in them that they don't really need?

I respect the hell out of the fact that each and every body is different and fuels different.  Trick is to figure out your own recipe that works for YOU.

Rererencing my experience with Sani2C and W2W (3 day stuff):
I can get by on a 4-5 hour stage race 3 days in a row with 4x 500ml of bottles per stage.  1 water (refill half way) and 1 juice (In my case USN or PowerB)(refill with whatever is available half way).  Burning matches as fast and hard as I can along the say.  No food.  Maybe a banana and hand full salt-covered potatos that I grab when I stop on a MTB halfway mark to fill the bottles.  That is it.

Does the above statement make sense?  Am I "under-fueling".  (I have not bonked in a race recently)  Or is my body just different compared to other people and I should be glad I don't consume R500 worth of gels during a race?  Or are people over fueling themselves?  

Thoughts?

Edited February 27, 2023 by Spinnekop

[Spinnekop]

On the fueling topic.

In my experience, you should try and stay away from processed stuff, ie. gells, bars, etc.
Rather do bananas, potatoes, droëwors, dates etc.

It will help you stomach in the long run over the 3 days.

[ChrisF]

10 minutes ago, Spinnekop said:

 

Serious question wrt to the above statement.

I have done a couple of stage race events over the past 28 years......and I have almost ALWAYS seen people stuff food in them that they don't really need?

I respect the hell out of the fact that each and every body is different and fuels different.  Trick is to figure out your own recipe that works for YOU.

Rererencing my experience with Sani2C and W2W (3 day stuff):
I can get by on a 4-5 hour stage race 3 days in a row with 4x 500ml of bottles per stage.  1 water (refill half way) and 1 juice (In my case USN or PowerB)(refill with whatever is available half way).  Burning matches as fast and hard as I can along the say.  No food.  Maybe a banana and hand full salt-covered potatos that I grab when I stop on a MTB halfway mark to fill the bottles.  That is it.

Does the above statement make sense?  Am I "under-fueling".  (I have not bonked in a race recently)  Or is my body just different compared to other people and I should be glad I don't consume R500 worth of gels during a race?  Or are people over fueling themselves?  

Thoughts?

 

Last year I had a session with a dietitian, which specialised in sports nutrition for diabetics.

 

Her initial recommendation was ZERO "food" during the event, just 250ml of juice per hour and plenty of water.

 

I asked about some of the nice stuff I saw at the water tables .... she had a good laugh.  It may be nice.  It may even not be bad .... but certainly not part of proper race fuel strategy.

 

When replacing the "juice" with solid food you could potentially get enough energy .... but you are still way short of replenishing your electrolytes.

 

 

Balance this against my friend who is doing the Ironman in a few weeks.  She did the Comrades and the Mosselbay Ironman with her current coach.  PROPER full medicals, blood tests, etc, then sessions at specific heart rates to test her system.  Once they knew how her body reacts to long events they set about her feeding ....  A FRACTION of what she was using previously !!  

 

 

 

PS - a decent bit of time was spent checking my type of diabetes as well as the level of treatment/stability, before she would talk about the type of juice applicable to my state of health.  Health young racers going full taps would obviously use "high octane racing fuel", while mine suits my health and levels of effort.

[bleedToWin]

> Or are people over fueling themselves?
Not possible, you burn calories way too fast! What is possible is to cause GI distress by consuming more than you can digest or consuming things that you are not used to or in ratio's or quantities that you are not used to. In yesterday's Tour de PPA I burned 2260 Calories in 2.5h. 800 - 900 Cal/h is about normal for racing for me. That is 200 - 225g of carbs per hour, which no one can digest. I am gut trained to handle 100g per hour, but the rest has to come from glycogen reserves and some minor fat oxidation that is at least somewhat possible at race pace.

Even at lower intensities that burns less calories and allows more fat oxidation to occur you will be going into your glycogen reserves from the start line. If you are not consuming carbs at your maximum possible rate you are limiting how hard you can go or how long you can go hard for.

[Theunissa]

2 hours ago, 117 said:

Amohela hey... 

For day 1 put on a 30T chain ring. For day 2, put on a 34T or what ever your normal day to day chain ring is. 

After day 1, stay away from the hype in town and the local craft brewery. Rather go chill out at your guest house and relax, have a braai or whatever. Keep off the beers until after day 2. 

Do some HIIT intervals before you go to Amohela, get some good short steep up and down training in - some punchy up and down stuff will work, like Cradle moon or even Thaba or if you're close to the south, then come ride the trails at the eye with us (also, these are good for higher altitude rides as Amohela is all in the thin air stuff above sea level). 

Day 1 has lots of ups and downs with little places for recovery hence the HIIT training. Day 2 is more relaxed and out on the district roads. 

If you're entering to win, approach it in a very strategic way. If not, go and have a jol

The end 

The height, does it affect you alot. Due to less oxygen? Got a Silverback HT. With 3x9 all I got. 

I'm very competitive. But just want to do this as a see how it goes race. It's not seeded as I understand. 

No alcohol for me. Taking wife and kids staying in a close by farm. For a few days. Maybe 4. To just relax from life a bit. Training part noted. 

 

[Theunissa]

2 hours ago, The Ouzo said:

Maybe its just me. But there have been a few threads where, to me, you've come across as being new to the sport.

But like I said, probably just me. I'm not on any witch hunts so wont be going to find those posts. I'll make peace with the fact that I'm getting old and cranky.  

I get what you saying. So let me give history. I habe been cycling from 2016 before not much as a sport. More now and then except of we count school and commute right after school. I did mostly max 60km 1 day races. I would eat pap( oats or pronutro before a race, but train on an empty stomach.) I was told a banana is enough to last 2 hours and should take it 2 hours into the ride, some posts yes are from lacking knowledge. 

 

2 hours ago, bleedToWin said:

Not the one who asked, but this makes it look like you started cycling this year:

> 1.5 to 2  hours into it a banana. I have alot of water. 2l in back pack and my bottle. And seems I need more.

A banana has enough carbs for 15 minutes of fuel.
Maybe you've been cycling for a while, but never hard enough or long enough to have bonked, and since you haven't done multi day events you haven't noticed how seriously you are under-fueling. 

 

[Theunissa]

2 hours ago, ChrisF said:

 

Work with your coach.

 

This goes way beyond jus doing the "routine" he prescribes.

 

A good coach can follow your Strava and check on your progress.  A "routine" is only going to work when tailored to YOU.

 

That said, there is a minimum level that he needs to set to properly prepare you to finish, a whole new level if you want to move up the ranks.

 

 

I have been working more than a year to prepare for my first three day event.  My school fees to date:

1. My bumm needs more multi day training ....

2. My on the bike feeding and post ride recovery meal is now 99% sorted  

3. Doing a long ride is one thing .... training your body to recover for day 2 and day 3 .... long slow road for me

4. PACE YOUR RIDE !!!  Refer to point 3 ..... I still tend to burn too many matches during an event .... I struggle with the concept of dialing it back just that bit, getting a decent time, without burning all the matches.  Giving myself a proper test of this on 11 and 12 March !!

 

 

 

Following this thread with interest, learning from the many multi-day riders on the Hub 

Did you find an answer yet on shorts. And I agree on the burn your matches, it's difficult to not want to race. 

[Theunissa]

1 hour ago, Spinnekop said:

On the fueling topic.

In my experience, you should try and stay away from processed stuff, ie. gells, bars, etc.
Rather do bananas, potatoes, droëwors, dates etc.

It will help you stomach in the long run over the 3 days.

I tried a gel the weekend when I was running at 130% made me naar and feel sick. I struggle with super suger loaded fuels. That's why I tried bananas, I read the pros use it. 

[Theunissa]

1 hour ago, bleedToWin said:

> Or are people over fueling themselves?
Not possible, you burn calories way too fast! What is possible is to cause GI distress by consuming more than you can digest or consuming things that you are not used to or in ratio's or quantities that you are not used to. In yesterday's Tour de PPA I burned 2260 Calories in 2.5h. 800 - 900 Cal/h is about normal for racing for me. That is 200 - 225g of carbs per hour, which no one can digest. I am gut trained to handle 100g per hour, but the rest has to come from glycogen reserves and some minor fat oxidation that is at least somewhat possible at race pace.

Even at lower intensities that burns less calories and allows more fat oxidation to occur you will be going into your glycogen reserves from the start line. If you are not consuming carbs at your maximum possible rate you are limiting how hard you can go or how long you can go hard for.

Seems like I need to get a professional to really help me with the correct nutrition and not go on hearsay and what works for others. 

[117]

20 minutes ago, Theunissa said:

The height, does it affect you alot. Due to less oxygen? Got a Silverback HT. With 3x9 all I got. 

I'm very competitive. But just want to do this as a see how it goes race. It's not seeded as I understand. 

No alcohol for me. Taking wife and kids staying in a close by farm. For a few days. Maybe 4. To just relax from life a bit. Training part noted. 

 

3x9 you'll be OK. Take it easy on the down sections if you don't have a dropper but you'll be fine. The race is at altitude so lack of oxygen will catch the unprepared - do the homework on the race routes

The key is to go have a jol especially if you're there for a few days 

[Frosty]

3 hours ago, Theunissa said:

I don't mind. The work. It's needed. I like a challenge. I don't want to bother him with stuff he's not payd to do 

If I were your coach, I’d give you as much as you need and a bit more. There’s more to coaching that just giving a training plan to follow. That’s what surprises me about saying he’s not paid to give advice. Did you buy a boxed training plan?

Pacing strategy:
Keeping it easy enough early on to be able to finish strong at the end, on each day as well as on each stage.

Knowing what to eat and how much according to the intensity you expect to ride at.

Knowing the route and recommending pacing based on your strengths

 

[Dogs]

My limited input would be is to get a massage package - so much nicer to start the next morning with reasonably fresh legs.

[devvydoesdonuts]

2 hours ago, ChrisF said:

 

Last year I had a session with a dietitian, which specialised in sports nutrition for diabetics.

 

Her initial recommendation was ZERO "food" during the event, just 250ml of juice per hour and plenty of water.

 

I asked about some of the nice stuff I saw at the water tables .... she had a good laugh.  It may be nice.  It may even not be bad .... but certainly not part of proper race fuel strategy.

 

When replacing the "juice" with solid food you could potentially get enough energy .... but you are still way short of replenishing your electrolytes.

 

I used to shove food down at the coffee stop on rides because it was always thought that I was "fuelling" but always ended up feeling bloated and burping for an hour afterwardswhile riding, I now just have a coffee and something small to keep the hunger bugs away but nothing too heavy. I just have a bottle filled with electrolytes and another just with water and this works quite well for me, but when the training rides turn into bleed from the eyes ride then I find myself having to take a gel or grab an energy bar to maintain the efforts, but I opt for the sugar free and caffeine free options to try not put too much nonsense into my body while riding.

With the whole solid food thing, I remember reading an article or watching something on YT about nutrition on the bike and they were saying something about our bodies stop processing solids and carbs as efficiently when we are working out intensely, and thats why you should try and consume foods that are easier to digest to get the nutrition from them sooner, memory is a bit vague on this but it was something along the lines of that.

[DieselnDust]

5 hours ago, Theunissa said:

I'm lost. Can you elaborate on your comment. New to stage races yes. Not new to cycling 

Your key focus area is recovery.

eating a lot is not the answer. Eating the right types of food in the right quantity is the answer. This will come from your nutrition plan. 
a big mistake many people make is to eat everything in sight. Then on day 3 they wonder why they can’t over the next hill and blame fatigue. Well yes of course it’s fatigue and additional weight. Your body has to be able to digest its food as efficiently as possible. So steak is not the answer. Eat your carbs i

medistely after you finish the stage and up to about 5pm

the eat saturated fats and protein for dinner but only enough that your body will need. In your case Theuns, around 200gr of chicken or 250gr of tuna or salmon or 350gr of hake or similar fish. Most stage races will give you chicken or beef. Go for the chicken everytime. Over eating at night just keeps your digestive system working and not returning nutrient to your muscles where it’s needed.

this is the most important part of your ace to get right.

[DieselnDust]

2 hours ago, Theunissa said:

I tried a gel the weekend when I was running at 130% made me naar and feel sick. I struggle with super suger loaded fuels. That's why I tried bananas, I read the pros use it. 

Not everyone can digest fructose effectively. I use only natural foods so stiff like race food far bar . I only use gels when I’m operating at very high intensity or fatigue is high I.e toward the end of a long stage when my body can’t digest heavier food and fuel my legs at the same time

[Theunissa]

23 minutes ago, DieselnDust said:

Not everyone can digest fructose effectively. I use only natural foods so stiff like race food far bar . I only use gels when I’m operating at very high intensity or fatigue is high I.e toward the end of a long stage when my body can’t digest heavier food and fuel my legs at the same time

YES fructose is a problem for me. Especially stuff like oranges, grapes, pears. Etc. Give me cramps and the.... 

Banana, apple is ok