[Event] King Price Race to the Sun

[Skubarra]

19 minutes ago, bleedToWin said:

Across the various threads I'm seeing a lot of "gravel is the future" but then also "won't be back to this one". Here's to hoping we can find what works and keep enough people satisfied for the sport to grow!

Was thinking the same thing (and I was one who said exactly that after the Houwhoek tour last week)

Cannot comment on the route here but what I would say that if a race is specifically marketed as a gravel race there is some onus on the route planner / organiser to make sure the route is as gravel friendly as possible. If not then warn people and do that "choose your weapon" marketing blurb (and maybe not use it as national gravel champs?) If you enter a traditional mtb race  (like 36One or Trans Baviaans?) on your gravel bike then the risk is on you and then there is no point complaining afterwards.

[Bub Marley]

This is why tyre chat is so prevalent in gravel. It can literally make or break your race.

 

Just going by the comments, i would definitely say if you’re in the market for a gravel bike, get one which can accommodate as wide a tyre as possible. I also think going to a 650b wheel size with wider tyres will not only give you more grip, it’ll give you greater comfort and puncture protection. Only problem is availability of 650 tyres etc.

[Charity85]

19 minutes ago, Bub Marley said:

This is why tyre chat is so prevalent in gravel. It can literally make or break your race.

 

Just going by the comments, i would definitely say if you’re in the market for a gravel bike, get one which can accommodate as wide a tyre as possible. I also think going to a 650b wheel size with wider tyres will not only give you more grip, it’ll give you greater comfort and puncture protection. Only problem is availability of 650 tyres etc.

Agree that a 650b setup on gravel bike would be about as confortamble as you would get, I ran 45c as low as possible and my hands are wrecked, everything after about 100km was k@k, but I fully agree with previous hubbers comment: "Cannot comment on the route here but what I would say that if a race is specifically marketed as a gravel race there is some onus on the route planner / organiser to make sure the route is as gravel friendly as possible. If not then warn people and do that "choose your weapon" marketing blurb (and maybe not use it as national gravel champs?) If you enter a traditional mtb race  (like 36One or Trans Baviaans?) on your gravel bike then the risk is on you and then there is no point complaining afterwards."

[Pall Catt]

First time doing this race for me. Biggest complaint was being poorly seeded (my fault - I haven't really done any events for a good few years) which meant spending large parts of the day sitting behind slower riders occupying the only smooth strip of road, and then having to go into corrugations or loose sand to go around them - energy sapping stuff. But other than that, enjoyed the challenge, thought the event was pretty well organised, and I'm blown away by how many people participated in this event given the costs, logistics and toughness.

Edited May 13 by Pall Catt

[RearWheelDrive]

I did this race a few years ago and i got an entry last week as someone gifted me one😀. How hard can it be?? In my defence I just finished Sani. I remember the corrugations after the halfway mark and I was mentally prepared for that, but I think they changed the route a bit because after the 3rd water point when we turned and the sand just carried on and on. 

Proper rookie mistake, went out too hard tried to keep up too much, at about 145 I realised this race is going to be 10km too far. Chatting to a buddy who did it last year and he said they changed the finish to the parking lot last year and we come in on the tar road I wasn't too concerned. BUT when they took us next to the road I knew I was in trouble. The first time I did it we finished on the golf course and we had to do that bit there past the quad bike trails. So I knew what was coming... I saw the Pawpaw and I saw the Fan. And in my best attempts to keep these 2 from meeting I was unsuccessful.

700M to go the legs seized up. I have never cramped before, I usually get a twinge ease up and work through it, Not that day. WOW it hurt. I have laughed at my buddies cramping before (because they sort of do this weird dance). Not really that funny. I walked a bit to the top of that little kick 500 m before the finish. Got on and surprisingly, riding was better than standing. My poor wife wafting for me, following on garmin asked what took so long the last 5km? She says i looked bleak, I had to lie down in that air conditioned tent, recovered, showered and went for dinner

I  have no regrets, I really enjoyed that ride. Left nothing out there. Lots of people, well run. And I kind of like the honesty policy. I was really trying for a bronze, Crawled in 7:20, I was asked under 7 hours and I had to say No. Next year.... 😉

[Mountain Bru]

I feel like with any gravel race, there will be guys complaining about the condition of the roads/trails after the race. I agree that the loose sand and corrugations were horrible, but at the same time, I've ridden far worse trails in races on my gravel bike, and there were no sketchy rock-filled descents with a high probability of crashing on this route, so I don't have any complaints. I think if you want to ride perfectly smooth trails, road biking is what you're after.

But at the same time, I feel like in every gravel race you have to choose between having comfort and speed on technical terrain but reduced speed on the smoother stuff on a MTB, or speed on the non-technical terrain, but less comfort and speed when it gets technical on a gravel bike. Over this course, I have a hunch that the 2nd half of the race might be a bit faster on a dual sus, but the 1st half is much quicker on a gravel bike, and over the entire route, I think a gravel bike is faster. 

[Mountain Bru]

In terms of the race:
Had a really lekker first 100km and paced myself well for a sub 6, but then the wheels came off a bit and I ended up doing 6:34 after dawdling the last 10km. I knew the crappy dirt road next to the tar at the end was coming though from looking at the GPX file they posted. 

My biggest struggle was passing loads and loads of 50 miler riders who were riding on the "smooth lines" on the 2 long sandy climbs. I have zero objection to guys riding on the best line they can find, but passing almost always meant missioning through thick sand and corrugations to try and get past. I'm not sure if there's anything that can be done to improve this though.

For reference, I started in A, and averaged 28km/h for the first 100km, and was having to pass tons of riders that were barely moving on the climbs, I assume from the last batch of the 50 miler. Kudos to them for tackling the race, but flip it made the climbs hard having to constantly pass guys in the sand. 

[_David_]

40 minutes ago, Mountain Bru said:

Over this course, I have a hunch that the 2nd half of the race might be a bit faster on a dual sus, but the 1st half is much quicker on a gravel bike, and over the entire route, I think a gravel bike is faster. 

And a light Hardtail MTB with the appropriate gearing might be the perfect bike for the race.

[Jbr]

1 hour ago, Mountain Bru said:

Over this course, I have a hunch that the 2nd half of the race might be a bit faster on a dual sus, but the 1st half is much quicker on a gravel bike, and over the entire route, I think a gravel bike is faster. 

I went 2kph slower on the 2nd half than on the 1st half, but the profile (2nd half has all the +gradient when the 1st half was mostly -gradient) + the headwind that we started to feel after the mid race WP makes me really question the fact that a MTB would be faster anywhere (except maybe on the portage)

Also the fact that we picked up a few elites on MTB there that tried to stay with us but ultimately dropped is a good indication 😅 although in some of the sections I was looking at their bikes with envy

Edited May 13 by Jbr

[Bub Marley]

What is the biggest advantage of a gravel bike over a mountain bike?

 

• Gearing
• Bike position being in a more aero position
• Narrower / faster rolling tyres
• Better efficiency/power transfer as a result of the lack of suspension

 

If I had a mountain bike, which area out of those noted above are going to give me the most gains if i were to tweak it?

Edited May 13 by Bub Marley

[Fires7]

The race again was well organized.The only problem i had with the race was the traffic between WP3 and WP4 ,the roads were a challange compared to last year , but my wife and i enjoyed the challange , will be back next year

[Mountain Bru]

9 minutes ago, Bub Marley said:

What is the biggest advantage of a gravel bike over a mountain bike?

 

• Gearing
• Bike position being in a more aero position
• Narrower / faster rolling tyres
• Better efficiency/power transfer as a result of the lack of suspension

 

If I had a mountain bike, which area out of those noted above are going to give me the most gains if i were to tweak it?

Gearing - You can get the same range on either, so theoretically no advantage, but in reality, most MTBs probably don't have a fast enough top gear for fast sections. 

Bike position - Depends on the bike and how you ride it how you ride it. If you only sit upright on the hoods with a flipped up stem on a gravel bike, you might be less aero than being hunched over on an aggressive XC bike. Gravel bike will try to put you into a more aero position though, but if the route isn't that fast, being aero doesn't help that much. 

Tyres - Massive advantage, until it's technical or bumpy. 

Power Transfer -  Gravel bike is more efficient until the lack of suspension makes the ride too bumpy to pedal. Then you can put out more power on a MTB. 

For context, the current trend in gravel biking is to buy a gravel bike with the slackest fork angle you can find, and then try to turn it into a drop bar semi-hardtail by putting the widest tyres you can on it, a suspension seat post, and some form of front suspension either with a 50mm travel fork or a suspension stem, at which point you basically have a hardtail with drop bars for an extra R50k. But the principle is that over a long enough distance, being comfortable is fastest thing you can do. 

[Bub Marley]

1 hour ago, Mountain Bru said:

Gearing - You can get the same range on either, so theoretically no advantage, but in reality, most MTBs probably don't have a fast enough top gear for fast sections. 

Bike position - Depends on the bike and how you ride it how you ride it. If you only sit upright on the hoods with a flipped up stem on a gravel bike, you might be less aero than being hunched over on an aggressive XC bike. Gravel bike will try to put you into a more aero position though, but if the route isn't that fast, being aero doesn't help that much. 

Tyres - Massive advantage, until it's technical or bumpy. 

Power Transfer -  Gravel bike is more efficient until the lack of suspension makes the ride too bumpy to pedal. Then you can put out more power on a MTB. 

For context, the current trend in gravel biking is to buy a gravel bike with the slackest fork angle you can find, and then try to turn it into a drop bar semi-hardtail by putting the widest tyres you can on it, a suspension seat post, and some form of front suspension either with a 50mm travel fork or a suspension stem, at which point you basically have a hardtail with drop bars for an extra R50k. But the principle is that over a long enough distance, being comfortable is fastest thing you can do. 

You haven’t really answered the question though or ranked them. 
 

But just to comment on what you said:

Surely, being able to fit a larger front ring is a massive difference? That’s one part where you are stuck with a mtb. 
 

Wrt position on bike, you mentioned the upright thing but forgot about the narrowness. Even if you are on the hoods all the time on a gravel bike, the fact that your body shape is always narrower than on a flat bar means it will automatically make you faster?

 

 

[Rowl]

https://maroelamedia.co.za/nuus/sa-nuus/fietsryer-sterf-by-gruiswedren/

 

No reckless action from the taxi, apparently a freak accident.

[Zebra]

I actually thought he had a decent go at answering you, Bub?
 

No matter, I cannot help feel that an old Spez ‘Brain*’ shock (front & rear) equipped drop bar and gearing-optimized / converted MTB would tick a few boxes, for a gravel bike to do the more gnarly gravel…

*(…lynch him / burn him / he is a heretic / he mentioned ‘Brain-equipped’…  )

….and i can get near as much aero, pretty much, on SQ Labs inner/ends on an MTB flatbar, than i can on a drop bar bike, and it results in WAY less head-movement, etc. 

 

Edited May 13 by Zebra
Context

[Mountain Bru]

1 hour ago, Bub Marley said:

You haven’t really answered the question though or ranked them. 
 

But just to comment on what you said:

Surely, being able to fit a larger front ring is a massive difference? That’s one part where you are stuck with a mtb. 
 

Wrt position on bike, you mentioned the upright thing but forgot about the narrowness. Even if you are on the hoods all the time on a gravel bike, the fact that your body shape is always narrower than on a flat bar means it will automatically make you faster?

 

 

I think the point is that there isn't a specific answer (like 100s of threads testify). It's more that for every trail, or even every piece of a trail, there's an optimal bike. But then for the next stretch of trail, that same bike might be the worst option. So you have to decide what you want to compromise on, and how much you'll have to compromise. So if you have a MTB, that bike is probably perfect for some percentage of any gravel race, but then for the rest it might be better to be on a gravel bike (or a different configuration of that MTB). 

So if we take RTTS's route - It's probably something like 30% tarmac, 45% smooth gravel, 10% sandy, and 15% bumpy/rocky/corrugated terrain. So for 75% of the race, a gravel bike is optimal, but for 25% you'd be better off on a MTB. But that 25% isn't so bad that you're terribly slow, so for the whole route, I think a gravel bike is the best (and fastest) choice. 

But I did Cullinan to Tonteldoos last year on a gravel bike, and I wished I was on a dual-sus because there were so many rocky stretches where I was considerably slower than the guys on MTBs. 

But to answer your first question, here's my 2c on what you suggested to tinker with on a MTB (in order):
1. Tyres - Put some 42s or 45s on a hardtail, and you're 80% of the way to a gravel bike
2. Position - Get some SQ lab bar ends, and put them nice and close so you can get a bit more aero and have a different hand position. Also, maybe a longer stem if your MTB puts you super upright. For more money, drop bars are an option, but then you need new shifters and drivetrain compatibility might be a problem.
3. Gearing - Maybe a 36T chainring if you're on Shimano would be worthwhile to add some top end speed. I know some guys on Sram AXS run a mullet setup with roadbike chainrings and mtb cassettes - maybe that's an option. Basically, just try to increase your top end speed cos that's what you're missing on a MTB.
4. Power Transfer - I don't think there's much you can tinker with here without changing bikes or suspension, and then you might as well just buy a gravel bike. The spez brain stuff is amazing though, and works unbelievably well, but you have to service it at specialized, and it's expensive (around R2k per brain I think). 

But this is all if you want to go fast, and try to come 400th instead of 600th in a race. The actual things I think are important to enjoy gravel races more:
1. Shoes that are comfy and stiff and fit you well
2. Gloves and bar tape that give your hands some cushion
3. A saddle that fits you well
4. Proper bibshorts that keep your bum happy and chafe free
5. Big sunnies that keep dust out of your eyes
6. Top tube bags so it's easy to eat
7. Lower tyre pressures to add some comfort and grip

Hope that helps. 

Edited May 13 by Mountain Bru