cradle route

[Windbreaker]

 

Cyclists our own worst enemy. We are macho indestructable no brain idiots who think we own the road. We are so good at PR that we piss people of where ever we go.

 

Fellow cyclists really keep it up please. In so doing we will end up riding our trainers indoors because we will have nowhere to ride.

 

Do not stay in the area but have cycled there a few time a while ago. Some of the best roads to ride on.

appycyclist, I notice that you are new to the hub so you get the benefit of the doubt but do yourself a favour and read the gazillions of other threads about cyclist behaviour. I disagree that cyclists should be singled out as cyclist behaviour, if

you take an obejective view is fairly representative of south africa

road users generally - not very good. That is a separate topic.

 

This thread is about the the actions of a certain individual who feels that he has the right to put cyclists life in danger. I am fairly sure that the death of a cyclist in Glencairn a couple of years ago was because of a similar action - buzzing. In that case the culprit misjudged because he was drunk. The point is that it is not just a harmless protest that this cradle resident is exercising HE PUT PEOPLES LIVES IN DANGER INTENTIONALLY. Nothing can justify that!

 

[Wannabe]

Cyclists our own worst enemy. We are macho indestructable no brain idiots who think we own the road. We are so good at PR that we piss people of where ever we go.

 

Fellow cyclists really keep it up please. In so doing we will end up riding our trainers indoors because we will have nowhere to ride.

 

Do not stay in the area but have cycled there a few time a while ago. Some of the best roads to ride on.

appycyclist' date=' I notice that you are new to the hub so you get the benefit of the doubt but do yourself a favour and read the gazillions of other threads about cyclist behaviour. I disagree that cyclists should be singled out as cyclist behaviour, if you take an obejective view is fairly representative of south africa road users generally - not very good. That is a separate topic.

This thread is about the the actions of a certain individual who feels that he has the right to put cyclists life in danger. I am fairly sure that the death of a cyclist in Glencairn a couple of years ago was because of a similar action - buzzing. In that case the culprit misjudged because he was drunk. The point is that it is not just a harmless protest that this cradle resident is exercising HE PUT PEOPLES LIVES IN DANGER INTENTIONALLY. Nothing can justify that!
[/quote']

The Road Traffic Act calls it "Inconsiderate Driving". An offence that is punishable

[bruce]

Wannabe, i'd say inconsiderate driving is unintentional.  Intentional bad driving must be recless and negligent, a worse offence.  Charges could quite easily escalate to assualt with a deadly weapon, and intent to do grevious bodily harm, moving on to attempted murder or murder (heaven forbid).

These incidents are now on record.  Should one of these residents collide with a cyclist, they are going to have a very hard time convincing anybody that it was a mere accident.

[Wannabe]

Agreed Bruce, in your insident it is so. But mostly the car driver is ignorant of his actions, i.e Inconsiderate Driving.

[chucky]

To all cyclists residents read the letter my lawyer sent,if anything happens to a cyclist whilst riding the cradle route action will be taken.A meeting will hopefully be held on Wed and all invited to raide yor concerns in a constructive manner.So will ALL parties please make an effort to attend,we will post the place and time.

[Bat-ass]

Boys and Girls.... i have a family member who was hit by a car on a bicycle... he is now living a very limited life. What our extended family went through as he was left as a vegetable in hospital for months is unthinkable, and its not over... i know of another hubber who lost his dad...

Please, stop and wind your necks in!!! To the cradle residents.... don't hit a cyclist. It will ruin your life, emotionallly, and legally.

Cyclists... don't ride all over the road.. i know its hard when you are riding easily and having a conversation, but try stay tight left!!! My solution is, ride hard all the time and keep the bunch stretched out!!!

 

[buckstopper]

As a former member of the relevant club and having raced and trained with the 3 cyclists in this incident, and for whom I carry no brief, I make contribution to this unfortunate situation as follows:

1. I have personal experience of and would vouch for their road ettiquette.

2. I would say it highly unlikely that they would be found in the middle of the road AT ANY POINT.

3. If they were descending, their speed would likely be 45 - 60kmh, certainly not an obstruction to a law-abiding driver at 06h21 in my opinion.

4. The club concerned takes great care in ensuring that their groups cycle in manageable bunches with no more than 2 abreast - the slower groups being marshalled (as I have done) to ride 2 abreast and be warned of traffic from the rear for safety and out of consideration for motorists wanting to pass.

5. I have also been a victim of 'buzzing' in the area by high-speeding and aggressive motorists.

6. I believe that cyclists are merely a microcosm of society in general and cannot be lumped together as certain cradle residents seem prone to do. Participants in this forum would in the main be experienced, considerate, and responsible road users who are the converted. It is no wonder they take umbrage at the behaviour and threats of those who claim that constitutionally protected public property belongs to them, which amounts to vigilantism in my opinion. The cyclists who unfortunately cause the headaches ARE GENERALLY NOT PART OF THE CLUB RIDES although some may wear club kit. These are typically less experienced "funriders" getting fit for the 94.7 (in Spring when this debate first arose), and then died down, and for the Argus (and surprise surprise the issue flares up again). After the Argus this problem will go away as the numbers dwindle. It happens every year.

7. The disruption happens on the weekends from about 06h30 till about 09h30 and then the cyclists go home. This is for about 10 weeks before the 2 big races, or about 20 weeks per year, 3 hours for 2 weekend days per week - probably at worst 120 hours per year. (A year has 8760 hours), making this a challenge to the residents for 1,36% of their year. Assuming the residents work during the week, they should instead of driving around at law-breaking speeds early in the morning looking to vent their frustrations, enjoy the morning tranquility of their privileged circumstance and stay at home. If they need to go into town, they should plan their weekend trips for a decent hour. Easy -  compromise, everybody happy.

8. I suspect that the vociferous threatening few are in the minority, as typically extremists would be. I suspect that they see ALL cyclists as your atypical aggressive lawbreaker who need to be taught a lesson and choose not to distinguish between those who are a menace and those who are not. Tha t unsociuiablegroup of cyclists are also a minority who probably belong in the same group of personality traits as the residents and who don't participate in cycling forums such as this.

9. I believe these cyclists need educating by interested parties as to;

a) the health risks of their behaviour

b) the fact that the roads are also for the use of others, and

c) that riding in a responsible way makes for good neighbourliness.

10. Some of the posters on this thread should be barred in the interests of promoting good relations and that the rule of  " If you have nothing positive to say, say nothing" should be implemented by administrators. This issue is far too important for people to get personal. Indeed, are the administrators watching this thread?

11. I like to cycle in the cradle (haven't done so for some time) and would like to return there to cycle in safety.

12. I would appeal to those (and directly to the law) who are affected by the unsociable behaviour of riders, motorcyclists and drivers to petition those who are employed to protect and serve, to patrol and to fine offenders, who ride where they shouldn't, speed or drive recklessly. Their presence would be welcome in the interests of safety, I'm sure.

 

 

[Cradleresident]

Here we go again. Chucky you start the fire, now you come along and make out as you are going to save the day. Maybe try finding solutions, instead of starting fires.

As to your lawyers letter, we also have lawyers and the letter means nothing to us.

Comment on Bruce's comment about the vendetta. If you had read this thread and previous threads,

you would have seen that we have made the effort to get this sorted out. (starting about 3 years ago)  Cyclist clubs and CGC do not have the ability and in some cases the leadership to sort this out. A lot of talk and that all.

About  the meeting on Wednesday. I see you have taken it upon yourself to post the date and time on the hub. Are you saying it?s an open meeting now, or only with the representatives as per the teak meeting. Are you going to chair the meetings now?

Cyclists are like taxi drivers. They go through red robots, cut other road users off and when an incident happens, it is everybody else?s fault and now they are been victimised and the community has a vendetta against taxi drivers and blah blah blah , it goes on. And then the other tactic, they will threaten, insult and plan mass action. (you guys post names on the thread, without giving the full story.)

Bottom line is you come out here looking for trouble, get residents backs up, and when you get it, then its crocodile tears.

You and your fellow riders on Thursday are in leadership positions and you preach safety and tell everyone how you are trying to get things done. Maybe start with yourselves, that will be a good start.

Ps Chucky , what happened with the blockade, or was that all in your head.. Still waiting for your sources.

Comment on Buckstopper post

Point 2, they were in the middle of the road, they admit it. The road also has no shoulder.

Point 3, they were not going downhill. Where the incident took place is a slight uphill all the way.

Point 4. It was made clear by metro that cyclists cannot ride 2 abreast, only on dedicated cycle lanes

Point 6. Did you see a previous thread where photo?s were taken.  Club rides are a problem

Point 8 ? If you were at the teak meeting, you would realize it is not a few residents and you would also have seen the mood. Maybe also check out local newspaper articles.

Point 12 ? As residents we are strongly pushing for this at high levels.

[Flowta]

CR, you forget the point of the original post.

 

1 question to ask.

 

Did your friend, Mr X, try to buzz the cyclists?

 

(Bare in mind that he has already admitted to doing so.)

 

[Edge_Design]

Here we go again. Chucky you start the fire' date=' now you come along and make out as you are going to save the day. Maybe try finding solutions, instead of starting fires.

As to your lawyers letter, we also have lawyers and the letter means nothing to us.

Comment on Bruce's comment about the vendetta. If you had read this thread and previous threads,

you would have seen that we have made the effort to get this sorted out. (starting about 3 years ago)  Cyclist clubs and CGC do not have the ability and in some cases the leadership to sort this out. A lot of talk and that all.

About  the meeting on Wednesday. I see you have taken it upon yourself to post the date and time on the hub. Are you saying it?s an open meeting now, or only with the representatives as per the teak meeting. Are you going to chair the meetings now?

Cyclists are like taxi drivers. They go through red robots, cut other road users off and when an incident happens, it is everybody else?s fault and now they are been victimised and the community has a vendetta against taxi drivers and blah blah blah , it goes on. And then the other tactic, they will threaten, insult and plan mass action. (you guys post names on the thread, without giving the full story.)

Bottom line is you come out here looking for trouble, get residents backs up, and when you get it, then its crocodile tears.

You and your fellow riders on Thursday are in leadership positions and you preach safety and tell everyone how you are trying to get things done. Maybe start with yourselves, that will be a good start.

Ps Chucky , what happened with the blockade, or was that all in your head.. Still waiting for your sources.

Comment on Buckstopper post

Point 2, they were in the middle of the road, they admit it. The road also has no shoulder.

Point 3, they were not going downhill. Where the incident took place is a slight uphill all the way.

Point 4. It was made clear by metro that cyclists cannot ride 2 abreast, only on dedicated cycle lanes

Point 6. Did you see a previous thread where photo?s were taken.  Club rides are a problem

Point 8 ? If you were at the teak meeting, you would realize it is not a few residents and you would also have seen the mood. Maybe also check out local newspaper articles.

Point 12 ? As residents we are strongly pushing for this at high levels.

[/quote']

 

So much to say, yet so not worth the effort...

 

I think you have too much pent up anger, you should try buying a bike, it is a very good way to destress... Sorry, just realised you're banned from cycling in your area and your neighbours will hit you with a cattle prod and then drive over you while you're distracted if you tried it!

 

Maybe you and all your neighbours should cycle to this ultra important 7am Cradle resident weekend place (not sure where u all go at this time, the shops in my area are still closed!) and then there would be no issues! Wait, no, you would then complain about the other stupid drivers who come dangerously close to you while you're cycling...

 

Basically, just accept there are other road users, some faster and some slower than you want to go (remember we all drive cars too and also have to wait behind those same cyclists!), so just use a bit of patience - that extra 2 minutes of driving a day doesn't even come close to the time you've spent on the hub and having cocktail partys (aka "meetings") to discuss the matter... just think how many hours you've wasted discussing having to slow down 3 times every sunday morning! - It appears that you, like most of us judging by the daily rants, just enjoy moaning and causing trouble! That's fine, just don't endanger ppl's lives in doing it - think how your family would feel when the police come knocking at your door to tell them you've just been knocked over by a rabid cyclist, these cyclists your friend could have killed have families too.

[mr ples]

Wannabe' date=' i'd say inconsiderate driving is unintentional.? Intentional bad driving must be recless and negligent, a worse offence.? Charges could quite easily escalate to assualt with a deadly weapon, and intent to do grevious bodily harm, moving on to attempted murder or murder (heaven forbid).

 

These incidents are now on record.? Should one of these residents collide with a cyclist, they are going to have a very hard time convincing anybody that it was a mere accident.

[/quote']

 

Hi Bruce and Mark, the letter you refer to, not maybe, will come back to bite you. Such a letter must apply to all (that includes you guys in your car who may bump a cyclist accidentally anywhere in the world), and not be used to discriminate against residents of the Cradle (residents with-in a geographical area). We as residents will file such correspondence for future reference. Should two roads users be involved in an accident, then we as residents will use the letter likewise, in and outside the Cradle area. This will include, two cyclists colliding, a tourist that collides with a cyclist, a cyclist that looses control and collides with any other road user, a cyclists that spooks a horse and it's rider and so on. We will likewise have to a draft a letter for any organised races, that puts such constraints on an event, that we all sit and wait for someone to slip, then all hell is going to break loose. Such rules and regs will be distributed far and wide, and soon no Community will be willing to entertain any races in their area. Obviously, any future applications to run a race in the Cradle area will be met with resistance from the locals. I will attend the up and coming meeting, and this letter of discrimination must be tabled as the first item on the agenda, and if not withdrawn, The local Cradle residents may walk out, and start a process of resistance. Do not accuse any Cradle resident in advance of being a criminal. You sure are creating enemies very fast.

 

 

 

Furthermore, many residents have been assaulted by Cyclists, we have many such SAPS case numbers on file. Your in appropriate actions will now turn every Resident into a policeman. Guess you taking the pleasure out of riding in the Cradle area. Oh by the way, the average farm in Kromdraai cost about R10 mil, some of which is owned by some very successful lawyers. I am not a avid gambler, nor am I bluffing. I am respectfully requesting all to re-consider their stance in these matters. I am also appealing to the vast majority of law abiding road users, and in specific those cyclists who want to enjoy to Cradle route, engage with the Cradle residents in a meaningful manner to sort out these issues and move forward. 'Are You in or Out?' Regards Trevor.

[Guest Agteros]

Everybody bluffs, double bluffs, talks a lot, but nothing seems to be happening.

 

This is getting all very boring. Sad to say, but I'm becoming more and more reluctant to take my 'tourist' / day tripping money to the Cradle area. Whether this is to Teak Place on my MTB, or my son to the cave, or to the Rhino Park....

 

Seriously, there are other places to go for a Sunday afternoon than an area where cranky old men seem to stay

 

[no.one.knows]

can i ask probably a very silly question here?

 

to all the cradle residents on the forum.

 

Can you garauntee me that if i were to cycle on my own in the cradle, next to the shoulder of the road all the time, that none of your residents would hoot or drive close to me?

 

[slowpoke]

can i ask probably a very silly question here?

to all the cradle residents on the forum.

Can you garauntee me that if i were to cycle on my own in the cradle' date=' next to the shoulder of the road all the time, that none of your residents would hoot or drive close to me?
[/quote']

 

i doubt they can - considering that if your wheels are 10cm, let alone the legally recommended 1m, in from the left hand of the lane they call it "riding in the middle of the road"

 

also, as a biker who prefers not to speed i have almost been run off the road there by 4x4's due to riding "too slow" (ie at 60-80kmph) so cyclists (riding slower than that) will definitely be seen as "fair game" for "blocking their (sic) road"

 

this is why i am willing to give up my cycling time in order to escort cyclists (on my bike) so that when these local vigillante's do try anything i can at least keep up with them long enough to get a registration number

[leet22]

I would like to know how they hope to stop cyclists from riding on a public road in  the cradle area? What argument are they going to use?

[Edge_Design]

Hi Bruce and Mark' date=' the letter you refer to, not maybe, will come back to bite you. Such a letter must apply to all (that includes you guys in your car who may bump a cyclist accidentally anywhere in the world), and not be used to discriminate against residents of the Cradle (residents with-in a geographical area). We as residents will file such correspondence for future reference. Should two roads users be involved in an accident, then we as residents will use the letter likewise, in and outside the Cradle area. This will include, two cyclists colliding, a tourist that collides with a cyclist, a cyclist that looses control and collides with any other road user, a cyclists that spooks a horse and it's rider and so on. We will likewise have to a draft a letter for any organised races, that puts such constraints on an event, that we all sit and wait for someone to slip, then all hell is going to break loose. Such rules and regs will be distributed far and wide, and soon no Community will be willing to entertain any races in their area. Obviously, any future applications to run a race in the Cradle area will be met with resistance from the locals. I will attend the up and coming meeting, and this letter of discrimination must be tabled as the first item on the agenda, and if not withdrawn, The local Cradle residents may walk out, and start a process of resistance. Do not accuse any Cradle resident in advance of being a criminal. You sure are creating enemies very fast.

Furthermore, many residents have been assaulted by Cyclists, we have many such SAPS case numbers on file. Your in appropriate actions will now turn every Resident into a policeman. Guess you taking the pleasure out of riding in the Cradle area. Oh by the way, the average farm in Kromdraai cost about R10 mil, some of which is owned by some very successful lawyers. I am not a avid gambler, nor am I bluffing. I am respectfully requesting all to re-consider their stance in these matters. I am also appealing to the vast majority of law abiding road users, and in specific those cyclists who want to enjoy to Cradle route, engage with the Cradle residents in a meaningful manner to sort out these issues and move forward. 'Are You in or Out?' Regards Trevor.[/quote']

 

Ahh, another cradle resident playing the "look at me, I have an expensive house" game... Not to be rude or insult your wealth, but in South African (and even more so internationally), R10m is absolutely meaningless so please get over yourself...

 

The letter is aimed at ppl who have stated in one way or the other that they intend to cause harm to cyclists - this would make these ppl (and only these ppl) liable for much heavier charges if they were to hit a cyclist (I am not a lawyer, but this seems like common sense to me). Why it would involve someone on a horse, who knows?  In 19 pages, you have yet to touch on the point of this topic, is your buddy wrong in endangering somebody's life because they irritated him (irrespective of anything else!)? Him doing that is like me slapping you because I don't like your face - you may be ugly, but it doesn't justify the response!

shaun2312010-01-17 04:33:49