First Tokai MTB AGM

[Iwan Kemp]

Hi, all of you, I know none of the participants in this thread personally, but am an avid mtb'er. I am by no means a downhill maniac, but given that I ride with groups of beginner to average guys and gals, I think I have a reasonable understanding of what an average Joe like myself enjoys.And I would love to see Tokai as a Mtb paradise.

 

First off, the tone of this "debate" is bulls**t from a few of you. There appear to be intelligent, eloquent views expressed on both sides, and it is quite possible that both have valid views. But those saying that the trails are crap after they themselves have voluntarily excused themselves from the process, and who then say that they speak on behalf of the Mtb majority need to get over themselves. I have been riding Tokai for 5 years now and the vast majority of the trails have improved nicely. I have only ridden the snake trails once or twice and they are not in great nick, but anyone with a modicum of common sense knows that given when they were built, with total exposure to the heat, on sandy soil, that they would not hold up well. I lot of the Contermans trails are also looking dodgy, and as far as I know they were built by "professionals", as some of you call them.

 

But those making the ad hominem attacks on the current builders come across as 12 year-old narcissists who voluntarily withdrew from Xmas, and then who bitch and moan that they didn't get the biggest presents. And I'm not talking on the merits of the truth/facts/etc as I don't know them. I am talking about your ability to have a meaningful debate and create consensus. We ALL want great trails...

 

On a practical matter: are their proxies available fro the AGM? I work odd hours and will not be able to be there, but even though I have no clue who he is, I would like "DJR" to vote on my behalf. And I really hope Deon reconsiders his deicision to step down.

 

Good luck to everyone - cos I'm sure you are all a lot closer together on this than you think.

 

I know some of the guys, but not the most who have commented on here. (maybe more than I know but I don't know who all the nicknames / hub profiles belong to) and sadly I have to say you've hit the nail on the head. Reading through the thread is a sad affair.

 

I don't know all the ins and outs of how the whole system works, but I can't for the life of me imagine Deon receiving the go-ahead to have done more, but didn't. EVERYONE wants better faster more. Someone said (and I paraphrase) that it's not the quantity but the quality. I get that even though I do realise it's his opinion and maybe those of a couple of others.

 

I have ridden the new snake trails and even though the sun has hammered it, it is still a lot of fun. More flow than what gets said on here. Certainly longer and more flow than it used to be. Surely that should count for something?

 

Then there's Jonkers. Yeah, it's seen a MAJOR upgrade, but wasn't that only AFTER serious money started pouring in? Same trail builders who've been going at it for years. What's changed? Money. Not skill. Or time. Does Meurant not also make use of volunteers? You only have to ride some of the lower trail sections to realise that for LONG there was just about zero flow on any of the Jonkers trails. And a lot of it's praise-singers have only recently started riding there again. When the going got good.

 

I'm not saying Tokai is perfect, or that I know enough for that matter, but to approach it like this is shameful. First order of business should be to determine where what has gone wrong. If then all signs point to Deon or whoever, then take it forward. But to stand outside and criticize a system seems a bit rich. In the wise words of Ben Harper "What good is a man Who won't take a stand, What good is a cynic With no better plan"

 

To start over from scratch will also waste a lot of time and will lose us all a lot of progress that's been made. Out of interest, who is going to chair this meeting?

[jimmy hardtail]

if the majority are dh riders that turn up then that shows which group is most concerned about tokai. And most of the dh riders also have trail bikes and ride all the trails anyway.

[Flowta]

Your response to my post is exactly what I mean in my previous post. Very civil, chilled, etc and exactly what I mean by consensus building. Except that have seen no evidence of the venom of which you speak. As a total independent, I have always seen or felt Deon to respond fairly politely on this forum. Rather don't being up the personal stuff, and get the likes of myself, Papa Bear, Porqui, etc on by presenting your plans at the AGM. We all seem to share the same concerns, questions, etc.

 

And I love Meerendal and Contermanskloof. But I really think Boulders, My roots, Fairy Garden are much better. I just think those who have been involved deserve a few kudo's, cos the vast majority of us extremely average lads don't mind a pedal on a downhill, and battle with hectic trails at the best of times. But we we would always support a downhill mayhem track if we could become like Maritzburg

 

No he has not blown up on thehubsa, but taken it offlist. But I agree, personal issues should not be brought into it.

 

Boulders, My Roots & Fairy Garden have been there for years and Deon has been a great job maintaining them. A slight disagreement with the work that was done recently on the Table Top at the beginning of My Roots, but otherwise good.

 

It's the new snake trails I refer to namely Mamba and Boomslang.

 

I for one don't mind pedaling, to a point.

[DJR]

Nice pic DJR...

 

Show us the ones from all the other ones?

 

I don't like the negative comments directed at the volunteer builders. They are the true lovers of Tokai. They care enough to donate their time and their sweat to take ownership of the place. Never underestimate the power of that!

 

This pic shows the Saturday contribution of a 12 year old boy on Mamba - yes, you have been riding over those logs for the past 6 months and you didn't even appreciate it. Shame on you for ridiculing the efforts of others while you stayed away yourself during that time.

 

(I've reduced the picture size because I don't have the permission of the those involved)

Edited February 3, 2014 by DJR

[Iwan Kemp]

if the majority are dh riders that turn up then that shows which group is most concerned about tokai. And most of the dh riders also have trail bikes and ride all the trails anyway.

 

Honest question: could it not also mean that they are the only ones who are unhappy with the current workings?

[Thor Buttox]

 

 

No he has not blown up on thehubsa, but taken it offlist. But I agree, personal issues should not be brought into it.

 

Boulders, My Roots & Fairy Garden have been there for years and Deon has been a great job maintaining them. A slight disagreement with the work that was done recently on the Table Top at the beginning of My Roots, but otherwise good.

 

It's the new snake trails I refer to namely Mamba and Boomslang.

 

I for one don't mind pedaling, to a point.

If this was the tone of this thread from the beginning, everyone would be amped to work together and support. Honey, sugar, flies, and all that.

[Thor Buttox]

 

 

Honest question: could it not also mean that they are the only ones who are unhappy with the current workings?

+1

[Shebeen]

some really ugly stuff here, I don't know the history/personalities involved.

 

In a way it's a good thing, shows that there is PASSION for tokai mtb trails.

But I think it's gone way beyond constructive, imagine if the landowners(SANPARKS) are reading this...they get dissed a lot right here but it looks like a race to the moral floor to a neutral observer.

 

I don't think that an internet debate is helping. It almost seems like a moderator is required to mediate and get the vital discussion onto a constructive path. Who is the DUDE that all all tokai okes will respect??

[Iwan Kemp]

Slightly off topic: Seeing as I don't know everyone and do not understand what happens behind the iron curtain between build days, this is not aimed at anyone personally. Disclaimer over.

 

In my time as a mtb'er I have seen many a trail or location go through the DH or AM craze. Guys showing up building, hacking and adding all over the show. Some of it I can ride, some of it my guts and pants choose to ride around. Most of these have however gone to waste soon after. And when one asks around it's usually a case of either illegal building or the guys who were doing it couldn't get what they want from the land owners and left or found paradise on the other side of the fence and have moved along leaving a half-ass attempt behind. Or all three of the above.

 

And almost always this was the doing of DH'ers / AM'ers or guys wanting "bigger" trails.

 

So to my point: this leaves me concerned for the efforts that will go in to Tokai. What will happen when they don't get their way? Will they pack up and leave? Leaving shoddy trails and a frustrated Sanparks behind? Or can we strike the perfect balance? And what is the perfect balance? Trails for the majority or technical trails for the skilled.

 

Jonkers seem to have struck a good balance in my opinion - until I spoke to some mtb'ers over the weekend who said they don't ride there any more cause "dis alles DH trails". As if!

 

Again, not flaming DH'ers (God knows I've tried to go big!), just an observation...

Edited February 3, 2014 by The Crow

[Pappa Bear]

For the history go and read the WP downhillers FB page. It all started / flared up / spliied over with the closure of illigel trails in Tokai.

 

Good question, should SANParks not be involved in the AGM aswell?

Edited February 3, 2014 by Pappa Bear

[Iwan Kemp]

I don't think that an internet debate is helping. It almost seems like a moderator is required to mediate and get the vital discussion onto a constructive path. Who is the DUDE that all all tokai okes will respect??

 

Shows the importance of an impartial chair at the meeting. A meeting I think should happen before there's a vote and "change".

[Jewbacca]

Deon has busted a gut to keep us allowed to even ride up there, never mind create new trails and allow teams of workers up there.

 

Sanparks are sticky about everything, look at the Otter trail and how difficult it is to do anything in the Cape Point reserve.

 

Some of these comments are disgusting and ignorant to the point of being embarrasing.

[Slowbee]

SANPARKS should have this thread brought to their attention.

[Guest OldFlow]

Having had this thread brought to my attention, I have had a read.

 

I have also never ridden at/in/on Tokai i.e. I can only take what is on this thread.

 

How does Oldflow fit into all this lot ?

 

And a question directly at Oldflow, I see your complaints, I see you grievance. But I don't see any action comments? Within the last couple of months have you helped fix/build/maintain/give money to/contribute or do anything to the trails at Tokai?

 

Hi Slowbee,

 

Just to clarify, there is no "club" on our part. We can all have an equal say in this. This is a good thing and we should all be excited and get involved if we want any part in shaping the future of Tokai's trails. Nobody has conspired to get rid of anybody, but rather made it possible to hopefully accelerate positive change at Tokai. That could even turn out to be the existing guys plus a couple new ones. We can't control the voting (the group of protagonists who set this in motion numbers only four!). Let the chips fall where they may but it needs to be a democratic process.

 

To answer the question you directed at me:

 

"within the last couple of months have you helped fix/build/maintain/give money to/contribute or do anything to the trails at Tokai?"

 

No, but I have quite actively done all that plus a bit more prior to April 2013, and would be more than willing to do so again in future, under more constructive conditions.

[Iwan Kemp]

...

Good question, should SANParks not be involved in the AGM aswell?

 

Actually thought it might be a good idea for everyone to have a sit down with the relevant people from Sanparks and LISTEN to what they say to fully understand what's going on and what is do-able. No point we have coup only to find out everyone involved so far has actually been doing a good job.

[Capricorn]

someone earlier asked the rather pointed question: what is the real problem? Crow and Thor buttox have voiced concerns that come back to that singularly important question: what is the real problem at Tokai?

 

My understanding of the situation is that Sanparks has given us a sandbox to play in. The problem is, the size of the box. Added to that, is the problem of entry fees and funds raised from green card purchases not going back into the trails. But it doesn't matter how much money you have, whether its derived from entry fees or privately: if Sanparks doesn't give the builders more room to maneuver, we are stuck. Please clue me up where i've misunderstood the situation, but this is my feeling on the matter.

 

Frankly, I'd like to see a debate from the incumbent chairs to discuss this so i can make an informed vote. All this call for change without so much as a whiff of a strategy to resolve the real problem doesn't generate much confidence that change is actually required. At least change on the level of the volunteer and sanparks liaison groups.