Cyclists with a "Running" Problem

[Andymann]

appreciated, spoke to Neil now, and snapped up a Stryd V3, they will send it up here tomorrow. Rather do it once and properly, I have been going over review over review, and seems like a worthwhile investment in the long run, no pun intended lol 

 

Aha - only saw this now - We are Dinamic Coaching Gauteng so just an extension of Neil down in CT.

 

Feel free to chat to me if you have any questions - my Wife and I were of the first in SA to start using Stryd and I have done a bunch of tests - HR vs Power vs Pace so fire away if you need

[Vetplant]

Aha - only saw this now - We are Dinamic Coaching Gauteng so just an extension of Neil down in CT.

 

Feel free to chat to me if you have any questions - my Wife and I were of the first in SA to start using Stryd and I have done a bunch of tests - HR vs Power vs Pace so fire away if you need

While you are here...

 

Most of us on these threads understand riding a bike on Power and Training on the IDT with power.

 

Can you maybe give us some insight as to the difference and similarities between Running with Power vs Riding with Power?

Edited June 24, 2020 by Swift&Aero

[Geared]

Aha - only saw this now - We are Dinamic Coaching Gauteng so just an extension of Neil down in CT.

 

Feel free to chat to me if you have any questions - my Wife and I were of the first in SA to start using Stryd and I have done a bunch of tests - HR vs Power vs Pace so fire away if you need

That’s great to know , I only saw CT, Neil service and prompt replies was stellar !!

 

ordered yesterday and arrived 9.30 this morning on the dot. And followed up to make sure. Very impressed. 

 

P.s booked a full comprehensive set up on both my bikes with cyclefit  Shaper, they will come through Monday , and hopefully all good to go after that. 

Edited June 24, 2020 by Geared

[Andymann]

While you are here...

 

Most of us on these threads understanding riding a bike on Power and Training on the IDT with power.

 

Can you maybe give us some insight as to the difference and similarities between Running with Power vs Riding with Power?

 

Exactly the same principle - whether Cycling or Running, you need an absolute measure of effort which is not influenced by outside factors - so where perceived effort is subjective (my 8/10 is completely different to my wife's 8/10) and HR can change literally with the weather (When Riana went to Kona her HR was so high because of nerves and humidity she chose not to even look at HR), power is an absolute - so when your coach tells you to Ride at 250W for 20mins on a Monday and then again on a Friday you know your effort is exactly the same.

 

And for running its exactly the same - you have a running FTP (which is actually very close in my case to my Cycling FTP), and all your workouts are based on running at Power values which are a percentage of your FTP.

 

in fact, because Garmin who for whatever reason will not allow you to build a Running workout based on Power, but does allow you to build a cycling workout on Power, I do all my runs as a bike workout, and then just change them to a run afterwards.

 

The other big thing is that you need to remember Stryd is first and foremost a Power sensor and then a footpod - a lot of people spend ages trying to get Stryd, Garmin (Polar, whatever) to read the same distance and speed as their GPS and Treadmill.  When you run on power, you ignore all other metrics - time and power are what you use.

 

It's a very accurate footpod too, but that's not its main purpose.

[Chris_]

Exactly the same principle - whether Cycling or Running, you need an absolute measure of effort which is not influenced by outside factors - so where perceived effort is subjective (my 8/10 is completely different to my wife's 8/10) and HR can change literally with the weather (When Riana went to Kona her HR was so high because of nerves and humidity she chose not to even look at HR), power is an absolute - so when your coach tells you to Ride at 250W for 20mins on a Monday and then again on a Friday you know your effort is exactly the same.

 

And for running its exactly the same - you have a running FTP (which is actually very close in my case to my Cycling FTP), and all your workouts are based on running at Power values which are a percentage of your FTP.

 

in fact, because Garmin who for whatever reason will not allow you to build a Running workout based on Power, but does allow you to build a cycling workout on Power, I do all my runs as a bike workout, and then just change them to a run afterwards.

 

The other big thing is that you need to remember Stryd is first and foremost a Power sensor and then a footpod - a lot of people spend ages trying to get Stryd, Garmin (Polar, whatever) to read the same distance and speed as their GPS and Treadmill.  When you run on power, you ignore all other metrics - time and power are what you use.

 

It's a very accurate footpod too, but that's not its main purpose.

 

Cycling I can picture in my head. Its watts / energy being pushed through a mechanical 'thing' that measures such. Where is the energy measured in running? I know it goes in your shoe, but how or what does it measure? 

 

(I don't know if this makes sense.)

[Andymann]

It has taken some time to get used to saying I'm doing my easy runs at 260W instead of 5:30 pace, and a lot of experienced runners are good enough to know their pace down to within a few sec/km so are not convinced running with power isn't just a gimmick.  But I can say with confidence that as someone who was a pure cyclist  Stryd made a huge difference.  in 2012 I did my first Olympic distance duathlon in Germiston in where I ran a 53:00 first run.  I stormed the Cycle, but lost 10mins on the second 5km.  By 2015 my run had progressed to 43:00 - also at Germiston - but I was still losing massive chunks of time on the second run.  Run, Overbike, Walk was my motto.

 

I stagnated at around 43:00 on the first run, but always lost it on the second run, regularly 5 or so minutes behind. 

 

In May 2017 I went onto Stryd, and while my First runs initially got slower my second runs suddenly were only 2 or 3 minutes behind the winner and in reach of a podium.  All because of being able to run at a constant effort - slightly lower on the first run, leaving some in reserve on the second run.

 

in 2019 after two years on Stryd, I went to World Duathlon champs and ran a 38:00 first run and a 21:00 second run - yes it was pancake flat and I really did push it, but there is no doubt that running with Stryd made a huge difference.

 

Just my experience 

 

 

[travisza]

Cycling I can picture in my head. Its watts / energy being pushed through a mechanical 'thing' that measures such. Where is the energy measured in running? I know it goes in your shoe, but how or what does it measure? 

 

(I don't know if this makes sense.)

There is the key question.

 

A cycling power meter has a strain gauge. This measures physical force which is then translated into watts.

 

A running power meter, in this case stryd, uses accelerometers and some fancy algorithms to calculate a power number. Its not actually measuring power like a cycling power meter does.

 

The there is a difference. A watt is a watt in cycling....its a strain gauge measuring the force you are creating. This isn't the same with running (yet)

 

Edited to add:

Or at least there is not widely accepted accurate measure of power yet in running. I think thats the biggest difference with cycling now. 

 

And because DC is so good here is some more info for you.

https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2019/06/testing-in-the-wind-tunnel-with-stryds-new-running-power-meter.html

Edited June 24, 2020 by travisza

[Andymann]

Cycling I can picture in my head. Its watts / energy being pushed through a mechanical 'thing' that measures such. Where is the energy measured in running? I know it goes in your shoe, but how or what does it measure? 

 

(I don't know if this makes sense.)

 

Its basically an accelerometer - like you get on modern superbikes which measure braking forces and acceleration, so you have running acceleration, impact and force.  From there you are able to calculate Watts.

[Andymann]

There is the key question.

 

A cycling power meter has a strain gauge. This measures physical force which is then translated into watts.

 

A running power meter, in this case stryd, uses accelerometers and some fancy algorithms to calculate a power number. Its not actually measuring power like a cycling power meter does.

 

The there is a difference. A watt is a watt in cycling....its a strain gauge measuring the force you are creating. This isn't the same with running (yet)

 

That is true - its a calculated figure - but just like people are finding out now on Zwift that not all Power is equal, it's really about the consistency.  So If I do a running FTP test, and find out that my 3min test resulted in me burning 10 calculated Watts (or Apples, Pears, Beers) and my 9 min test resulted in slightly less Watts or Apples, if I base my training on those figures, and my training program is adopted to suit then all I need to do is run at that figure.

 

I really don't mind if my Stryd Watts are not actually Watts - what I want is something that can measure a consistent value repeatedly without outside influence - which is what it does extremely well.

 

Having said that, my cycling FTP is 315W and my Running FTP is 308W - and my training zones for both are very close.  

[travisza]

That is true - its a calculated figure - but just like people are finding out now on Zwift that not all Power is equal, it's really about the consistency.  So If I do a running FTP test, and find out that my 3min test resulted in me burning 10 calculated Watts (or Apples, Pears, Beers) and my 9 min test resulted in slightly less Watts or Apples, if I base my training on those figures, and my training program is adopted to suit then all I need to do is run at that figure.

 

I really don't mind if my Stryd Watts are not actually Watts - what I want is something that can measure a consistent value repeatedly without outside influence - which is what it does extremely well.

 

Having said that, my cycling FTP is 315W and my Running FTP is 308W - and my training zones for both are very close.  

100% agree with you. It's more important that its consistently inaccurate rather than inconsistently accurate because if its consistent it gives you a base to work from

 

Don't get me wrong - if I had spare cash lying around I'd definitely be tempted to try a Stryd. At this stage its a mixture of RPE, Pace and HR for me. 

[b-rad]

Berlin Marathon and New York Marathon now cancelled.

[shaper]

Exactly the same principle - whether Cycling or Running, you need an absolute measure of effort which is not influenced by outside factors - so where perceived effort is subjective (my 8/10 is completely different to my wife's 8/10) and HR can change literally with the weather (When Riana went to Kona her HR was so high because of nerves and humidity she chose not to even look at HR), power is an absolute - so when your coach tells you to Ride at 250W for 20mins on a Monday and then again on a Friday you know your effort is exactly the same.

 

And for running its exactly the same - you have a running FTP (which is actually very close in my case to my Cycling FTP), and all your workouts are based on running at Power values which are a percentage of your FTP.

 

in fact, because Garmin who for whatever reason will not allow you to build a Running workout based on Power, but does allow you to build a cycling workout on Power, I do all my runs as a bike workout, and then just change them to a run afterwards.

 

The other big thing is that you need to remember Stryd is first and foremost a Power sensor and then a footpod - a lot of people spend ages trying to get Stryd, Garmin (Polar, whatever) to read the same distance and speed as their GPS and Treadmill.  When you run on power, you ignore all other metrics - time and power are what you use.

 

It's a very accurate footpod too, but that's not its main purpose.

After 2yrs of training and racing with a stryd, i have a spreadsheet with power v pace v hr, can pick a race finish time and run it almost to the second.

 

With Trainingpeaks you can create workouts as a percentage of your critical power. Works very well, so all my workouts and plans are either pace based or power based depending if the athlete has a stryd. It even works out your TSS, so can build the workouts specific and not only on power.

 

Edit: you can also create your workouts with the stryd app https://support.stryd.com/hc/en-us/articles/360043729754-How-to-create-a-workout-on-the-Stryd-Workout-app

Edited June 25, 2020 by shaper

[shaper]

It has taken some time to get used to saying I'm doing my easy runs at 260W instead of 5:30 pace, and a lot of experienced runners are good enough to know their pace down to within a few sec/km so are not convinced running with power isn't just a gimmick.  But I can say with confidence that as someone who was a pure cyclist  Stryd made a huge difference.  in 2012 I did my first Olympic distance duathlon in Germiston in where I ran a 53:00 first run.  I stormed the Cycle, but lost 10mins on the second 5km.  By 2015 my run had progressed to 43:00 - also at Germiston - but I was still losing massive chunks of time on the second run.  Run, Overbike, Walk was my motto.

 

I stagnated at around 43:00 on the first run, but always lost it on the second run, regularly 5 or so minutes behind. 

 

In May 2017 I went onto Stryd, and while my First runs initially got slower my second runs suddenly were only 2 or 3 minutes behind the winner and in reach of a podium.  All because of being able to run at a constant effort - slightly lower on the first run, leaving some in reserve on the second run.

 

in 2019 after two years on Stryd, I went to World Duathlon champs and ran a 38:00 first run and a 21:00 second run - yes it was pancake flat and I really did push it, but there is no doubt that running with Stryd made a huge difference.

 

Just my experience 

What I have also found that not only can you pace or push better, but in training with stryd I have become more efficient a runner. Where last year, my pace would be relevant to a certain power, now at the same power my pace is faster! It is a small percentage but it can make a huge difference in overall race time.

[Vetplant]

All very interesting, thanks for the explanations.

 

Out of interest Andymann, do you guys have stock of the newer Stryd that also takes wind into account?

[Vetplant]

After some "light"   reading on the DC Rainmaker site:

 

Those with Fenix 5 or similar can install the Garmin Running Power App to get some Running power functionality without spending additional cash.

 

For those with Fenix 3 or similar, like me... we can't get the Garmin Running Power App but there is a privately developed App to try:https://apps.garmin.com/en-US/apps/530bd211-afd5-41a6-8204-9a2f7ac94541#0

 

I'll give it whirl and let you guys know. The reviews look good, but it will obviously fall far short of a dedicated Power Running device.

[Andymann]

100% agree with you. It's more important that its consistently inaccurate rather than inconsistently accurate because if its consistent it gives you a base to work from

 

Don't get me wrong - if I had spare cash lying around I'd definitely be tempted to try a Stryd. At this stage its a mixture of RPE, Pace and HR for me. 

 

Yup unfortunately they aren't cheap.

 

In terms of HR and Pace I did quite a few tests - in the beginning I also wasn't completely convinced so had to prove to myself it worked.  I have a hill here in Krugersdorp which I aptly named "The Nipple"  as it has a nice symmetrical shape ( )and I ran a few tests based on Pace, HR and then Power.  I set my Garmin to beep when I went over or under the required value - and ran them all on the same day of the week at the same time - for consistency. 

 

With HR I found that about halfway up the hill my HR spiked, so I slowed down to keep in the required zone.  It then remained high until over the hill and only came down again halfway down the other side - so I was able to speed up.  When I ran on power, the moment I hit the incline my power went up instantaneously, so i slowed down, but as soon as I reached the peak, my power dropped and I had to speed up.  When I downloaded and compared, I was 6sec faster over the segment than when I ran on HR, and more importantly, my HR curve was a lot more consistent than when I did the run on HR alone.  So in summary, I ran the hill faster with Power, and at a constant effort, compared to when I ran it on HR alone.  It seemed to me that my HR lagged over the hill - so I was losing the potential to increase my pace in the downhill while I waited for my HR to recover.  That was the deciding factor for me.

 

On Pace it was a bit more blurred - the total time on pace vs power were very similar, except my HR was very high on the uphill and very low on the downhill running on pace,  whereas on Power my HR was more consistent over the hill - due to that fact that my pace dropped on the uphill but sped up on the downhill.  So running on pace I guess over shorter distances would probably be ok, but the continuous spiking in HR over a half-marathon and longer would probably not be ideal.