The Veganism Thread

[Odinson]

Dude, we are growing more than enough crops to feed the entire world. We could stop all meat production right now and still be able to feed the planet.

 

Can you not accept that the current system is not tenable. It’s not about screwing the farmers over, it’s about saving this planet.

 

Edit: you’re so concerned about the people who are suffering from feed insecurity, but are happy that we feed millions of tons of soy and maize to cows, pigs and chicken for single digit calorie conversion returns?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/dec/05/beef-eating-must-fall-drastically-as-world-population-grows-report

 

People in rich nations will have to make big cuts to the amount of beef and lamb they eat if the world is to be able to feed 10 billion people, according to a new report. These cuts and a series of other measures are also needed to prevent catastrophic climate change, it says.

 

More than 50% more food will be needed by 2050, according to the World Resources Institute (WRI) report, but greenhouse gas emissions from agriculture will have to fall by two-thirds at the same time. The extra food will have to be produced without creating new farmland, it says, otherwise the world’s remaining forests face destruction. Meat and dairy production use 83% of farmland and produce 60% of agriculture’s emissions.

 

Increasing the amount of food produced per hectare was the most critical step, the experts said, followed by cutting meat-eating and putting a stop to the wasting of one-third of food produced.

 

“We have to change how we produce and consume food, not just for environmental reasons, but because this is an existential issue for humans,” said Janet Ranganathan, vice-president for science and research at the WRI.

 

Tim Searchinger, of the WRI and Princeton University, said: “If we tried to produce all the food needed in 2050 using today’s production systems, the world would have to convert most of its remaining forest, and agriculture alone would produce almost twice the emissions allowable from all human activities.”

 

The new report, launched at the UN climate summit in Katowice, Poland, follows other major scientific analyses showing that huge reductions in meat-eating are “essential” to avoid dangerous climate change. Another found that avoiding meat and dairy products was the single biggest way to reduce an individual’s environmental impact on the planet, from slowing the annihilation of wildlife to healing dead zones in the oceans.

Edited December 7, 2018 by Odinson

[Milkman]

I have mentioned before and will say again ; of course we must all try and do our part to help our planet - but there is a place for animal based foods in the world as well . I am not saying screw the planet , I want my meat ?

 

The points you mentioned all point to the same thing - over population of the planet ! Thats the real problem . Not the farmer in the Karoo raising his sheep to sell his Tjoppies at the Spar so we can braai it on a Saturday night. 

 

 The economics of farming unfortunately necessitates large scale farming where animals are kept in enclosures and fed in order to produce food cheaply for the masses . But once again - that is because there are too many people . If it wasn't for the huge population that would not have been the case .

 

So the real problem is not the fact that we eat animal based foods , but that there are too many of us !

[Skylark]

Solve greed and you'll have solved the most serious blight on the face of the earth. Everyone becoming vegan is like putting a nice big Disney plaster on the problem but it won't solve the underlying issues.

 

Get everyone meditating 30mins a day and you'll naturally see some pretty radical shifts towards positive sustainable human lifestyles. Veganism is a noble cause but its the underlying mind shift that would be motivating that choice which is actually needed. Horse before the cart.

 

Vastly less meat consumption would be a good solution, limiting the farming of farm animals to only those that can be treated in a humane manner would be sufficient to bring the whole industry down to sustainable and decent levels.

Ie ban feedlots, caged animals in tiny coops, factory farming etc.

[Goodbadugly]

This holiday season when you guys drive to Cape Town and you go through the Karoo , please stop at a farmer there and explain to him he must stop this sheep farming nonsense and plant some soybeans ,because those sheep require WAY too much water .

 

Point I am trying to make is this :

 

Only around a third of all agricultural land in the world is arable ( can be ploughed ) . The rest is too dry or wet or rocky or hilly or just not suitable to plant crops on . People therefore farm with animals on that land . Even here where I stay in the Vredefort Koepel there are very few farms that can be used for crops . 

 

So please tell me what should happen to the around 64% of Agricultural land in the world if everyone should stop using animal based foods ? 

Don't argue with keybord farmers. They know it all

[IceCreamMan]

Question of course is, how can you have any pudding if you don’t eat yr meat?

[Milkman]

Telling people to be vegan because it will save the planet is akin to giving someone with a terminal disease an aspirin to ease the pain. You might be hiding the pain a bit for a while , but the disease is still there and growing .

[Milkman]

Don't argue with keybord farmers. They know it all

 

I actually do have some Nguni cattle on a farm of mine , so suppose I can be called a boer ????.

And before someone has a fit , they walk freely on the farm .

[Eldron]

Telling vegans that tell people that reducing their meat consumption will ease the load on the planet that they're wrong is akin to throwing your hands up in the air, buying a 12l diesel jeep, leaving all your lights on all day and night, sprinkling oil all over your neighbourhood and saying "hey Johnny my boy - sorry about the planet, our bad".

 

Absolutism is fun. We can play all day :-)

[Milkman]

Telling vegans that tell people that reducing their meat consumption will ease the load on the planet that they're wrong is akin to throwing your hands up in the air, buying a 12l diesel jeep, leaving all your lights on all day and night, sprinkling oil all over your neighbourhood and saying "hey Johnny my boy - sorry about the planet, our bad".

Absolutism is fun. We can play all day :-)

You are right. I am not gonna try and argue your point .

 

My point was more in the theme of this thread where the OP was discussing why be a vegan. The discussion has gone from the moral to the health and now the inviromental implications.

I was trying to explain ( as you are also saying ) that his absolutist view regarding saving the planet by stopping the consumption of animal based foods is in my opinion not correct .

[Eldron]

You are right. I am not gonna try and argue your point .

 

My point was more in the theme of this thread where the OP was discussing why be a vegan. The discussion has gone from the moral to the health and now the inviromental implications.

I was trying to explain ( as you are also saying ) that his absolutist view regarding saving the planet by stopping the consumption of animal based foods is in my opinion not correct .

 

Agreed.

 

I've never been an absolutist (or vegan).

 

Up to a certain point he is right though - eating less meat IS good for our health (depending how much you eat of course!), IS more moral and IS better for the environment. If we all stopped eating meat overnight it would cause more problems than it would solve but I do believe the world will eat less and less meat in the next decade or 2.

 

Stop? Nah, Less? Yes.

[Escapee..]

Read this weekend on twitter

 

"You may not be interested in veganism, but veganism is interested in you!"

[Rocket-Boy]

So I have been noticing an increase in people on facebook who have turned vegan constantly telling everyone else what horrible humans they are.

 

Its quite funny really because two of them went vegan for reasons not related to animals at all.

One of them has kids that were allergic to a lot of different stuff and the diet was better for them.

The other is currently living in Vietnam and was too scared to eat the meat available there for fear of what it could be and concerns around hygiene.

 

But now they are trying to push the agenda that everyone who eats meat hates all animals lol.

 

Its funny how the plush leather interiors of their cars or designer leather shoes are all fine though because you know its just how they came.

 

Im all for making decisions that are beneficial to your environment or circumstances, but dont come and shout from the rooftops about other people's choices when you are clearly not perfect.

 

*just a thought*

Why are vegans generally so pushy about it and vegetarians arent? 

[GrahamS2]

Can you not accept that the current system is not tenable. It’s not about screwing the farmers over, it’s about saving this planet.

 

Will not eating meat stop humans from breeding? 

[forkie]

A few sites quote 15,000l of water per 1kg beef so a 200g patty is around 3,000 litres of water.

 

Wheat is 1,500l of water per 1kg wheat.

 

I'm trying to fathom that myself. Sounds unbelievable.

 

Surely most of that water is put back into the environment in some way.... If those numbers were correct the earth would be a dry husk be now.

i guess a lot of this is what a cow drinks in its life. but we have a thing called the water cycle. so the cow pees out the water again. this is evaporated and falls as rain later. its not like the water is destroyed never to be seen again

[Chris_]

So I have been noticing an increase in people on facebook who have turned vegan constantly telling everyone else what horrible humans they are.

 

Its quite funny really because two of them went vegan for reasons not related to animals at all.

One of them has kids that were allergic to a lot of different stuff and the diet was better for them.

The other is currently living in Vietnam and was too scared to eat the meat available there for fear of what it could be and concerns around hygiene.

 

But now they are trying to push the agenda that everyone who eats meat hates all animals lol.

 

Its funny how the plush leather interiors of their cars or designer leather shoes are all fine though because you know its just how they came.

 

Im all for making decisions that are beneficial to your environment or circumstances, but dont come and shout from the rooftops about other people's choices when you are clearly not perfect.

 

*just a thought*

Why are vegans generally so pushy about it and vegetarians arent? 

 

I think we've agreed you can go vegan for a couple of reasons. Animal welfare was one, the environment was another and I think health (if I'm remembering correctly). It doesn't have to be all three to allow you to qualify.

 

Your two food stories made me chuckle, allergies are common place in many foods these days because of the rubbish we inject and feed and house a lot of our foods. (I feel I can speak personally to this) Also, not knowing where/what your meat comes from and how its stored and cooked is commonplace not only in shady countries but lets be honest it can happen anywhere - that great KFC chicken washing video comes to mind. So your two points here are actually directly agreeing with vegan health principles. 

 

If your mates want to make a scene, I can't speak to you or them on that. I agree though vegans are seen to be pushy, I think mostly its because it goes against such steadfast lifestyle norms. If I pull out a salad at work I hear about it for the rest of the day, people (especially South Africans) simply refuse to accept anyone could survive life without meat. So it just makes this minority an easy and stand-out target. 

 

The other thing, perhaps perhaps... maybe pushing an agenda is a good thing. If there is science behind it, if its going to help you, maybe it should be vocalized a little more often. And from zero to anything is always going to be a 100% increase so it will be overwhelming. Take any trend these days, we're constantly getting bombarded with media - try as hard as you want you cannot block it out. I'd sooner cut my eyes out than watch a Kardashian program but that doesn't stop it from infiltrating every single nook and cranny of society and inevitably finding its way to me. You cannot stop it, its just how you respond to it. 

[Eldron]

I think it's a human condition that the more you are interested in something the more you want other people to agree with you (and provide you with confidence that they made the right choice - a nice echo chamber for your decisions).

 

There are tons of other examples. The church of Crossfit, the perfection of KetoPaleoLowCarb, the self righteousness of the single speed (this one IS correct of course!), the idiocy of anti vaccing.

 

Once people believe something they want to preach it!