Hypothetical dream build (mamil style)

[DieselnDust]

Okay I didn’t listen to the podcast. Been reading some interesting stuff on steel vs. titanium recently. One point of view is that in the late 80s the only titanium available was aerospace grade. But these days with composites this is not easy to find anymore and in general lower grades of titanium are used on bikes these days. This, together with better grades of steel, has resulted in the difference between steel and titanium frames in terms of strength and weight almost disappearing. Steel is, however, still cheaper.

 

Anecdotal evidence from an American bike builder is that they receive more titanium frames for repairs these days than steel frames.

I don't think there is a lot of truth in the POV that have published.

Titanium is very much in use in Aerospace as well as Petrochemicals. Very high grade of material is required to ensure reliability in the harsh environments equipment operates in.

What has shifted is that the skill required to fabricate titanium framesets in the USA has shrunk. A lot of the skill required is still in Europe, Russia, China, Vietnam and India. Those countries still have active space programs, very large petrochemcials industries both upstream and downstream. Russia is still the biggest supplier of titanium sheet and tubing in the world. The USA is next biggest.

Consumption of titanium in industry has increased since the 80's so there's less surplus offcuts available.

Then the expertise to fabricate the alloy, sheet and tubes is focused into those industries and typically can earn more by remaining in those industries. In the 80's and 90's many skilled welders in the US were laid off as America no longer built new Oil refineries and also rolled back their space program post Apollo. So some went into titanium frame manufacture e.g. The Lynskey family.

Today, Vietnam, China and some spots in the USA are the main areas for Titanium Frame fabrication.

Its much much easier to make a steel frame and even easier to make a carbon frame than it is to make a titanium frame hence its less popular. People who can't fabricate in titanium are not going to promote it as that's just bad for their business.

 

If you want a really good history of titanium have a listen the this chat on the history of the real Skunk Works.

 

https://youtu.be/pL3Yzjk5R4M

 

 

PS: finished listening to the podcast. Much BS is spoken therein

Edited July 30, 2020 by DieselnDust

[Wayne pudding Mol]

If I was going to do this, I would chat to one of these guys....

 

https://www.applemanbicycles.com/bikes/mountain

 

https://alchemybicycles.com/product-category/bikes/mountain/

 

or chat to the guys at Calculus.....

possibly

no, these are for real mountain bikers

must be dual sus, must be carbon, I have enough steel

[DieselnDust]

Pivot Trail429?

[Frosty]

Same is true for a TIG or MIG welded steel frame. Crash it and its toast because you can't replace a tube like you can with a lugged frame.

Frame builders will always promote the material they're most comfortable working with and for many that is not titanium. Its a very specialised material to work with and deliver a high quality product

Okay I didn’t listen to the podcast. Been reading some interesting stuff on steel vs. titanium recently. One point of view is that in the late 80s the only titanium available was aerospace grade. But these days with composites this is not easy to find anymore and in general lower grades of titanium are used on bikes these days. This, together with better grades of steel, has resulted in the difference between steel and titanium frames in terms of strength and weight almost disappearing. Steel is, however, still cheaper.

 

Anecdotal evidence from an American bike builder is that they receive more titanium frames for repairs these days than steel frames.

The UK frame builders The Cycling Podcast spoke to, said a steel frame is much easier to fix compared to titanium. Steel is more forgiving than titanium when it comes to welding.

 

Also, titanium needs to be welded in a room purged of oxygen. If not, impurities can get in (under) the weld causing problems down the line. That is why a re ally good frame builder will charge a lot - Argon isn’t cheap.

 

Anyway, the podcast tells the full story.

[Wayne pudding Mol]

You get a Calculus Bikes custom frame.

 

 

My invoice is in the mail

The titanium space in my cave is currently filled

 

But love the look of the Calculus bikes

Edited July 30, 2020 by Waynemol

[Wayne pudding Mol]

My two options

 

https://www.unno.com/aora/

 

Going to be tight on the price.

 

https://www.orbea.com/gb-en/bicycles/mountain/alma

 

It is only about two weeks old.

 

I know the Spez is not on the radar, but I was day dreaming about the brakes you have, the wheels and the rest, will look sweet on a Spez Evo

 

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/s-works-epic-evo-frameset/p/175243?color=291506-175243&searchText=74820-0201

 

At the end of the day, only real option is a custom titanium frame.

now I'm being a real show off tool, but the hardtail option is filled in the cave

 

I did however really like this one from your brand

Edited July 30, 2020 by Waynemol

[Wayne pudding Mol]

https://ridegg.com/products/trailpistol?option=Frameset&variant=32914959597704#option_set_content_3

ok this is more my speed  - pity the SL is not a frame only option

[Wayne pudding Mol]

What's the deal with Pyga not coming through yet?

I don't know - no dates given yet, covid, refining, fine tuning etc etc - I have no doubt it will be awesome but I'm over the wait.  

[Wayne pudding Mol]

Pivot Trail429?

tad heavy (and yes I know I"m also a "tad" heavy)

 

Bike must come in under 10kgs which gives me 2.3 max frame weight with shock

[Shebeen]

possibly

no, these are for real mountain bikers

must be dual sus, must be carbon, I have enough steel

https://salsacycles.com/bikes/spearfish/2020_spearfish_carbon_frame

 

carbon yes

dual yes

mainstream NO!

more XC than trail. yes 

 

how would you even get it here? idunno

[DieselnDust]

The UK frame builders The Cycling Podcast spoke to, said a steel frame is much easier to fix compared to titanium. Steel is more forgiving than titanium when it comes to welding.

 

Also, titanium needs to be welded in a room purged of oxygen. If not, impurities can get in (under) the weld causing problems down the line. That is why a re ally good frame builder will charge a lot - Argon isn’t cheap.

 

Anyway, the podcast tells the full story.

 

 

so that is very very untrue. Yes titanium needs to be welded in an inert gas environment but its not welded in a purged room unless its being welded by robots. TIG welding equipment feeds the inert gas into the weld area. The welder doesn't have to wear a hazmat suit with oxygen supply.

Yes titanium is harder to fabricate, that's about the only bit that's true.

Unlike steel, titanium can be welded repeatedly within the heat affected zone provided the material is shielded from oxygen till its below 420degree C. Steel cannot be welded again in the HAZ. Therefore it's possible to repair a titanium frame. You just need a skilled welder.

The UK has never had a strong titanium industry. A lot of the welding and fabrication work for their Oil and Gas and Aerospace industry is contained within that industry and the motorsports industry.

Titanium frame fabrication isn't a cottage industry and that I think is the crux of the negative view. 

Its the same reason Calculus doesn't weld their own frames nor shape the tubes they specify on your custom frame. The drawing and hydroforming of those tubes is left to the specialist fabricator

[DieselnDust]

tad heavy (and yes I know I"m also a "tad" heavy)

 

Bike must come in under 10kgs which gives me 2.3 max frame weight with shock

 

 

Ok so you're really looking at something very focussed 

Only XC machines that can get you that low are:

 

Pivot Mach 4 SL

Scott Spark HMX (common as fish and chips)

Cannondale Scalpel Hi-Mod with Lefty Ocho/Fox Factory 32 SC 

Intense Sniper XC

[JScottP]

Canyon Lux Frameset,

 

https://www.canyon.com/en-za/mountain-bikes/cross-country-bikes/lux/lux-cf-slx-frameset/2440.html?dwvar_2440_pv_rahmenfarbe=BK%2FWH&dwvar_2440_pv_rahmengroesse=M&quantity=1#!accordions=1_1

[Wayne pudding Mol]

https://salsacycles.com/bikes/spearfish/2020_spearfish_carbon_frame

 

carbon yes

dual yes

mainstream NO!

more XC than trail. yes 

 

how would you even get it here? idunno

apparently a south african distributor

 

I like this one and have made comms

[Eddy Gordo]

ok this is more my speed  - pity the SL is not a frame only option

Thats just chequered decals. You can still choose the blue option tho. Also that is a limited edition so doubt they will do a frame only. However you can try and ask them. The guys at GG headquarters are awesome

[Wayne pudding Mol]

Thats just chequered decals. You can still choose the blue option tho. Also that is a limited edition so doubt they will do a frame only. However you can try and ask them. The guys at GG headquarters are awesome

also made contact