Thinking about an eBike purchase

[aquaratza]

I recently discovered an old friend had moved into my area. He's always been an avid cyclist, so we've been getting together for some awesome rides around Durbanville.

 

He has both a *normal* bike and a very high-spec Specialized eBike.

 

When he's on a *normal* bike the ride is long and decent and comfortable for me... but when he's on his eBike, even with it on the eco mode, it's a hard workout. 

 

This isn't bad, in fact it's great, but I'm not always capable of doing that kind of ride and part of me thinks that perhaps it's time for an eBike. I don't expect him to ride his normal bike (if you've got it, flaunt it) and I feel like the time is coming where if I want to ride with people I may need to have the option of an eBike. There's no way I'd be able to keep up with an eBike if the rider went for it.

 

My multiple personalities don't all agree that an eBike is a good idea, but that's a whole story on its own.

 

In the Specialized range, a reasonable crossover of price/value seems to be the non-SL aluminium Turbo Levo. They've got 500Wh batteries, which seems substantial, especially if combined with an addon water-bottle battery, something *like* this one from the classifieds: https://bikehub.co.za/classifieds/item/dual-suspension-mountain-e-bikes/419663/2020-specialized-turbo-levo

 

The one above is bleh though because it is fitted with a SRAM NX 11 speed (!?) cassette, which seems crazy.

 

So the question is:

- If I currently ride a carbon fibre dual-suspension normal bike (around 13kg in weight, I'm around 89 kg = 103 kg all up) and can produce 250w comfortably and continuously, would a Specialized Alu eBike (non-SL) level the field when riding with other eBikes? A 250w eBike at maximum output, plus 250w from me is 500w over two hours, which is decent, but that's going into extra weight: Alu non-SL is ~21kg, so all up weight of 110kg aka extra 100% power at an extra 10% of the weight.

 

And then there's also the question of second-hand vs new; one seems to save around R 20k on the latest bikes if you go second-hand. But I think this kills the warranty? 

 

I suppose this is about accessibility and leveling the playing field.

 

Thanks!

Edited August 30, 2020 by aquaratza

[porqui]

Seriously ???

 

 

 

What is your point for riding ???

[aquaratza]

Seriously ???

 

 

 

What is your point for riding ???

Help me understand? I ride for fitness and social. I'm not planning on getting rid of my existing bike, I just figure I should have the option of joining eBike rides and be able to keep up.

[BaGearA]

If you're thinking about it do it , and don't kid yourself the normal bike will just stand around , sell it and put the money towards the ebike or upgrades for it 

[aquaratza]

If you're thinking about it do it , and don't kid yourself the normal bike will just stand around , sell it and put the money towards the ebike or upgrades for it 

haha yeah, that's a concern  . I ride with a group of friends on normal bikes regularly and I am stronger than all of them - an eBike would be counterproductive there. I don't think an eBike would go down well in that group 

Edited August 30, 2020 by aquaratza

[Chadvdw67]

haha yeah, that's a concern . I ride with a group of friends on normal bikes regularly and I am stronger than all of them - an eBike would be counterproductive there. I don't think an eBike would go down well in that group

Well then dont switch the Ebike on when riding with that group, the extra weight and resistance will even out the discrepancy and give you a better workout as well, two birds, one stone and all that

[PhilipV]

Is this a case of keeping up with the new Jones?

Because it seems you never had the need for a ebike until you rode with him? And you have other people to ride with who don't ride ebikes.

 

I don't ride with mates on ebikes, if you want to ride with me because you want my conversation, then ride your normal bike. I don't think it's unfair to expect that from your mate as well.

 

But let's face it, ebikes are a whole lot of fun, and you will enjoy riding it. And if you have the money to do it, then do with it what YOU want. But be honest with yourself with your reasons, then you won't be surprised later if you don't ride your normal bike anymore.

[PhilipV]

ITO the levo question, I think the weight difference between ali and carbon is so little compared to the combined power outputs that I don't think that it would make a lot of difference.

 

Also bear in mind that you'll be eating drivetrain much faster on the help-my-trap, so if cost is a concern, then the 11spd cassettes will be cheaper to maintain when worn out.

[BaGearA]

I recall a guy once telling me that him and his friends went over to ebikes for long rides (he always rode Enduro with us on a analog bike)

 

And that initially only one guy wanted to do it but all of them eventually caved cause in his opinion the slowest, weakest and most unskilled guy will still destroy a fit skilled cyclist if he's on a ebike while the other guy is on a normal bike. He said the gap is just too large in his mind and I tend to agree

 

Note, I've only ridden ebikes in car parks or at the trailhead to see what it's like, or try to do burnouts (not easy on a bicycle)

[ChrisF]

Aquaratza in January this year my hand was forced .... damaged knee yada yada ....

 

 

So my two options were either e-bike, or stop cycling .... according to two specialists

 

 

And so the search started .... and with each "Salesman" selling his product it certainly was not easy to come to a "fair comparison" between the different options and different brands .....

 

800km later on my e-bike, and even more hours watching youtube videos and "EMBN - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7Txz5nUDD14vCdNSU_JydQ" here are some random thoughts :

 

- the SA market is SMALL, and when you watch youTube videos you quickly realise we only have access to a minute portion of the options out there, so to some extent my feedback below will be tailored to what we can readily buy here .... (which then certainly is not the full picture, but the bit applicable to us)

 

- speed .... legally, and in terms of the bike warranty, the speed assist levels are limited as follows:

 * Europe - 25km/h, ie Specialized

 * America - 32km/h, ie Giant

(best to check the specific bike you are interested in, if this is an issue for you)

 

Practically speaking the 32km/h speed assist level is VERY handy for the tar sections to and from the trails.  Once on the trails the 25km/h assist level certainly is more than addequate.

 

On this topic .... IF you are buying second hand, do take it for test ride, and FEEL what the effect is once you go past the assist level.  Some of the older bikes did not transition nicely from assist to non-assist ..... terms such as "boat anchor" is used to describe some of the older technologies once you pass the speed assist level.  Modern bikes are totally seamless in this transition, you only realise it once you hit the next uphill and you struggle to maintain the speed.

 

 

- over riding the speed limit .... uhm ja, this discussion always pops up .... with most bikes it is incredibly easy to over ride !!!  BUT, the manufacturers would have us believe the computer records this, and the warranty is thus voided ....  Frankly, with a 32km/h speed assist limit I have not experienced a need to fiddle with this ..... this will also put extra load on the battery and shorten your range, more about this next.

 

 

- Battery ....couple of this to consider :

 * ease of removal .... Giant uses a key, then a quick-clip and the battery is removed.  Some manufactures use a bolt, then the battery is removed.  Some slip the battery into the down-tube, and the bike must be turned upside down yada yada ....  This may be an issue once you start planning rides where you need to swop out batteries during the ride.  As a rule of thumb, for the typical 50 to 60km trip this should not be needed, though I have drained a fully charged battery in less than 40km when riding INTO a gale force wind, and doing 600m of climbing .... so range is very much on a slide scale ....

 

 * Capacity ... as per the above, the range is very much on a sliding scale.  But my typical planning now is "less than 50km on the 500Wh battery" .... I would be very hesitant on entering a 55 km event with lots of climbing, on a single battery.

NOTE - with bust knees I DO use more battery than healthier riders may use, so "your" range will certainly differ.

 

There certainly is a conundrum with battery capacity when watching EMBN .... a portion of the market wants 750Wh and more, while others are willing to sacrifice Wh for a lighter bike.  Obviously a larger battery dramatically impacts the bike weight.

 

As you already know, the 500Wh battery with the "range extender" seems a popular option.

 

 

- motor types ....for now let's only discuss the "mid-mount" motor, ie the one between the pedals.  (you also get a motors fitted in the rear hub, the front hub,  motor with a rollor onto the rear wheel, and various other permutations).  Some of the more common mid-mount motors include

 * Bosch ie Scott, Trek, etc

 * Spezialised, ie Spez

 * Yamaha, ie Giant

 

It would appear Bosch motors and batteries are most common in Europe, as many bike manufacturers use the Bosch systems, though Spezialised is often credited as the market leaders in R&D for ebikes ..... 

 

Bosch motors typically perform optimally at higher cadence .... something to bear in mind for gear selection in steep technical sections.

 

The Yamaha motor in the Giant kicks in at lower cadence, though it loves working at higher cadence.  Very handy when your cadence drops in a particularly technical section.

 

I am not sure how the Spez handles this, and what the optimal cadence is for different riding conditions.  Sure your friend can let us know.

 

 

 

- The ride "feel" .... after my first trail ride I said:

 * the bike accelerates very fast, coming out of a slow technical section you pick up way more speed than you would with an ordinary bike in 2 or 3 pedal strokes !  Obviously you adapt to this quickly.

* though the bike is very heavy, you dont feel the weight while riding.

 

After a couple of rides I started experimenting ....

* you can select eco-mode, and work as hard as YOU want to.  So you CAN still get a decent work out.

* you can use the power settings and use the bike as a "chair-lift" to get to the top refreshed, and have a day of fun enjoying the single track down-hill sections ....

* yes, you will get some interesting remarks along the trails .... it is part of owning an ebike.  Mostly I make sure to pass people slowly, and great them .... minimal issues this way.

 

 

- Some random thoughts:

* It is VERY nice to know you wont be knackered after a particular mid-ride hill .... and depending on how you feel on the day, drop the power assist level and work as hard as you want to.

* when riding with friends on ebikes .... you WILL get a high cadence work out !!  It is different to a normal bike, but dont for one section think you are going to have it easy ....

* transporting the bike .... think about how you want to transport the bike.  This baby is significantly heavier than other bikes, and picking it up, mounting it to a rack, etc you will need to consider this.  I have a lady friend that wants an ebike, but she believes she wont be able to cope with the weight .... certainly she is over cautious.  Worst case, remove the battery and the bike is roughly the weight of a normal dual suspension.

 

 

 

- Programmability:

MOST of the bikes now have a "rider app" functionality linking your phone to your bike.  This allows you to re-program the assist levels .... I may reduce the assist level on eco mode, as it would allow me to save some battery power for those sections where I dont need much assistance.

 

Apparently the Spez app even includes some map functionality.  It also has a "get me home" program, where you pre-enter your ride, and tell the computer to make sure you have spare battery capacity to get home, thus limiting the assist levels during the ride.  

 

 

 

- WHY buy an ebike ?

Only a portion of buyers do so due to medical issues.

 

The rest do so "because they can".  This is no different to a road rider having a road bike, then buying a gravel grinder to join friends for some fun.  Your normal bike will still be used for its intended purpose.  The ebike simply opens a new world of options. 

 

 

 

- Which brand ?

Clearly you may well buy the Specialized. 

 

In February I spent a LOT of time in the Tygervalley Spez shop (actually in a few other Spez shops as well).  I LOVE the TURBO LEVO.  The bike looks good, it comes with a well known supply chain and back-up, the specs are good .... uhm, the 2019 specs were good.  For 2020 they downgraded the specs .... I tried to get a 2019 in my size, but the staff at Tygervalley was more concerned in telling me why NX/SX is "as good as GX" ....  and so the search continued.

 

As I was riding a Scott at the time, I went to two Scott dealers .... Larger battery and better range certainly got my attention !!  Price was not bad, but again NX/SX  (cant remember exactly which).  What soured the conversation was the fact that the bike was shipped with tires that were NOT tubeless ready !!  The dealer would not do a swop out ... I would have to pay full price for a new set of tires.  Of all the bikes I looked at the very square downtube of the Scott was certainly thee ugly duckling of the bunch ......  All e-bikes are "bulky", but this one certainly took it to the extreme.

 

I went to Best Bikes twice ... and got totally conflicting information from two salesmen .... they had a top of the range on the floor, and was only interested in selling that.  Still dont know what their entry level dual-suss ebike is (what I see on their website is not what they told me) ....  By all accounts Trek has the best warranty, but would help if they had better distributors.

 

I also had a look at the new Giant shop in Durbanville.  Raymond listened to my questions, then gave a broad outline of the options, then zoomed in on my budget and took time to explain what Giant offers.  Thanks to his approach I asked about the the next level up bikes as well, and walked out of there with a much better "feel" for what they offer.  

 

During the next week I visited all the shops again, checking specs, prices, and not least of all ... which bike actually looked nice .....

 

LOVE my Giant Trance E    

 

 

 

Good bike, for a decent price, and EXCELLENT service at Giant Durbanville.   They actually took the time to sell me what I needed, even though they did not have that model on the floor ... while most other shops were pushing hard to sell what they had in stock.  And as a bonus, it only took 24 hours for Giant Durbanville to get the model into the shop for me.

 

 

 

Oops, sorry for the long reply.  Hope some of the info may be helpful to you.

 

 

[ChrisF]

I recall a guy once telling me that him and his friends went over to ebikes for long rides (he always rode Enduro with us on a analog bike)

 

And that initially only one guy wanted to do it but all of them eventually caved cause in his opinion the slowest, weakest and most unskilled guy will still destroy a fit skilled cyclist if he's on a ebike while the other guy is on a normal bike. He said the gap is just too large in his mind and I tend to agree

 

Note, I've only ridden ebikes in car parks or at the trailhead to see what it's like, or try to do burnouts (not easy on a bicycle)

 

Party correct ....

 

I have climbed that steep hill going up Hillcrest .... one of the few places I use the third setting on my Trance E .... there was a gent on a normal bike that actually caught up to me !!     Granted, I had more power on tap, and it could have been interesting to see how hard he can push up that hill .... 

 

Single track downhills .... I hold my own and catch up to many weekend riders .... but truth be told, MANY riders catch me !!  (knowing that I am slow I do keep an eye out for traffic and get out of the way, no need to spoil good riders fun)

 

 

My only real "benefit" is that I have a "chair lift" and get to the top faster than most riders.

 

 

The hard truth .... ebikes get you to the top faster and fresher, the weight helps to get even more speed on the downhills ... and I know of way too many e-riders that over-cooked it on single tracks and ended in hospital ..... Talking of riders with lots of experience on standard bikes, that simply misjudged themselves on ebikes .... either the speed or the extra weight, possibly a combination.

 

 

Frankly it should be as easy as 2 or 3 easy rides to get your feet on the new bike ....

[aquaratza]

Hey ChrisF

 

Thank you for the in-depth post. I read it all

 

Very useful insights regarding the motors; how similar are the Yamaha and Bosch motors in terms of performance? What kind of advancements have been made in the last 3-4 years in the motor technology? Does your bike behave like a power meter (does it tell you how much power you're outputting)?

 

I'm not set on Specialized, it's just what I know. I like the look of the Giant Trance and it's definitely an option. You've raised some great points.

 

It's funny you mentioning speed cut out. I outrun my friend on the downhill (Vissershok outside Hillcrest) because his bike abruptly stops assisting at 32 km/h I think. Such fun ahaha. But I'm not in it for speed, happy with the existing assistance levels, although I am also an avid "hacker" and taking it apart would be fun - one of the benefits of getting something out of warranty . The cheap Chinese aftermarket kits are super programmable but a bit bleh.

 

"yes, you will get some interesting remarks along the trails .... it is part of owning an ebike. Mostly I make sure to pass people slowly, and great them .... minimal issues this way."

I've been on the analog end of this, although haven't made remarks. I always greet people anyway. I've been in instances where I've put in everything to stop someone overtaking me and when they eventually do I realise it's an eBike ahahahaha. I also vividly remember being overtaken by eBikes during the MTB Challenge in February.

 

I may come back with some more questions. Your bike looks great, nice colour, I know that route well. Thanks again!

Edited August 30, 2020 by aquaratza

[ChrisF]

I have added some answers below - 

 

 

..... how similar are the Yamaha and Bosch motors in terms of performance?

 

What kind of advancements have been made in the last 3-4 years in the motor technology? 

 

.uhm ja .... LOTS of videos on EMBN about which motor is best .... typically around 80 to 90 N.m torque.  But then some shows their max, while others allow a bit more for short periods yada yada ....  Fact is this only becomes applicable when using max power assist.  In July I got my timing wrong at the Traverse, from Bloemendal towards St Johns .... just above Bluegum forrest I realised I had 13 minutes to get off the Traverse !!  I started using the max power setting on inclines - the bike literally spun on a couple of spots !!  I had to dial it back one power level to actually use the power.  So in terms of max-power I believe most of these motors are already there.

 

The counter argument is that the battery range is SHORT when you start using that much power.

 

So the usefull progress in the motors have been to make them quieter - and the 2019 Trance is not one of the quietest around today.  Though the sound of the nobblies on tar to the trails by far drown out the motor sound.

 

Bosch released a motor update early this year.  Lots of saleshype .... realistically we are at the point of marginal gains.

 

Worth noting that Spez had an issue with their 2018 2019 motors, and have replaced many under warranty, even provide an extra 2 year warranty (just check, I hope I am quoting this correct) .... super nice, but also more reason not to fiddle with the speed and thus giving them an out .....

 

 

Does your bike behave like a power meter (does it tell you how much power you're outputting)?

 

Yes.  Think 99% of them do.  Giant has opted for a "control cluster" on the left of the handlebar, see photos below.  The 5 LED to the right is the battery level indicator, as you ride the lights start going out .... I have once had the last light go out 3km from home, at which point the last light turned amber ... I still had assistance.  (this was on the day with the gale force wind)

 

The lights to the Left are the power assist levels.  1 LED for "eco-mode", and 5 LED's for maximum assist.  Frankly there is way more than enough assist at 3 LED's to climb STEEP hills, including Hillcrest.

 

Bosch and Specialized use a little screen to provide data feedback.  They typically have 4 power settings:

- Eco mode

- Standard assist

- Auto (sorry, cant recall the correct term .... this is an addaptive system and adjusts the power assist depending on how much effort you put into the pedals ...

- Boost (maximum power assist)

 

 

PS - one of the valid complaints I heard on EMBD relates to the 5-LED power monitoring of the Giant.  You end with 20% on the last bar and just dont know if it is 19% of 2% ..... Then final amber LED does some buffer though.  And you quickly learn your bike, and you know for the type of riding and type of terrain you get  8 or 12km per LED ... so you know early in the ride how far you will go.

 

 

I'm not set on Specialized, it's just what I know. I like the look of the Giant Trance and it's definitely an option. You've raised some great points.

 

 

 

It's funny you mentioning speed cut out. I outrun my friend on the downhill (Vissershok outside Hillcrest) because his bike abruptly stops assisting at 32 km/h I think. Such fun ahaha.

 

I also vividly remember being overtaken by eBikes during the MTB Challenge in February.

 

At the Stanford Classic at the end of February there were two racing snakes, probably used this as training for the Epic.  Just before the start of the race they came back from a pre-race-ride .... The ebikes started a few minutes before them though .... there was one gent on an ebike that was MOTORING !!  Doubt he overclocked his bike, as the battery would not have lasted, think he was just a strong rider that USED the ebike to gain an advantage on the climbs .... Should add - the ebikes were not racing against the others for position or prizes.  These two racing snakes only caught the ebike on the last climb to the finish ... probably ran out of battery by that time.

 

Looking from the side it was awesome to see the potential, and limitations, of a good rider on an ebike vs good racers ....

 

 

 More importantly - the number of people having FUN on their ebikes at this event was good to see !!  As they were out of the running for position or prizes they stopped at the water points, and simply had a good time  Reminds me of the "fun rides" we had back in the 90's ... 

 

 

But I'm not in it for speed, happy with the existing assistance levels, although I am also an avid "hacker" and taking it apart would be fun - one of the benefits of getting something out of warranty .

 

  must admit, I have wondered about the "limits" .... if you de-restrict it, how far can you go, how fast can you go (well this one is easy as you spin out at 40'ish...), more importantly, if you GUN it, how long will the motor last .....  not lessons I want to learn on a new bike, after voiding the warranty .....

 

 

I may come back with some more questions. 

 

will certainly try to answer....   

 

 

Your bike looks great, nice colour, ....

 

 

 

 

"Eco mode" -

 

"Mid-Level" -

 

 

Standford Classic

 

These two were RACING to try and catch the ebike .... Actually they owe him a drink, he gave them a DECENT workout for the Epic (who knew on 29February 2020 that the cycling year would go for a ball in a few weeks)

 

 

 

The short route ebike field starting ... the photo dont show the relaxed atmosphere, and the lekka vibe amongst this group 

What kind of advancements have been made in the last 3-4 years in the motor technology? 

[porqui]

Help me understand? I ride for fitness and social. I'm not planning on getting rid of my existing bike, I just figure I should have the option of joining eBike rides and be able to keep up.

 

I think you have answered your own question.

 

(Btw my question was not being sarcastic - genuine question)

[aquaratza]

(Btw my question was not being sarcastic - genuine question)

 

...that initially only one guy wanted to do it but all of them eventually caved cause in his opinion the slowest, weakest and most unskilled guy will still destroy a fit skilled cyclist if he's on a ebike while the other guy is on a normal bike. He said the gap is just too large in his mind and I tend to agree...

Yes haha. It seems to be a different sport to a degree due to the nuances associated with battery management (on longer rides). Greater than 250w assistance continuously over 2 hours is a serious advantage, but naturally not competitively permissible/useful. My friend used 60% (!!!) of his 750Wh battery on our first ride together (3 hours), which pleased me greatly. That's 150W of continuous assistance.

 

I remember watching people during the MTB Challenge cruising up the hills at silly speeds. I *also* remember passing some eBikes where it seemed like the riders had run out of battery haha.

 

The skills asymmetry is often obvious at single-track obstructions (particularly during the last Houw Hoek Tour).

 

Is this a case of keeping up with the new Jones?

Because it seems you never had the need for a ebike until you rode with him? And you have other people to ride with who don't ride ebikes.

 

I don't ride with mates on ebikes, if you want to ride with me because you want my conversation, then ride your normal bike. I don't think it's unfair to expect that from your mate as well.

 

But let's face it, ebikes are a whole lot of fun, and you will enjoy riding it. And if you have the money to do it, then do with it what YOU want. But be honest with yourself with your reasons, then you won't be surprised later if you don't ride your normal bike anymore.

Maybe @ keeping up with the Jones. You raise a valid point. I guess I don't want to be in a position where I miss out, whether due to not feeling well or simply being incapable due to not having assistance.

 

It's a dangerous debate to get into but there's at least one person in our informal group who rides a normal bike who thinks that eBikes are the future. He may just be paving the way for himself . I think eBikes are fundamentally different to normal bikes, so I don't think they'll replace normal bikes entirely, but I can also see a potential future where they do largely replace normal bikes. Who knows. One could say there's honour in doing it yourself, but is that enough?

 

I think it'd just be useful to have the option of an eBike. On more reflection I think, for me, getting something older will probably be a fun hacking project and be sufficiently assistive to level the field, not to mention relatively cheap. It doesn't have to perform wildly, just adequately and I'll put in the rest.

Edited August 30, 2020 by aquaratza

[aquaratza]

<some text>

Cool photos ChrisF.

 

"uhm ja .... LOTS of videos on EMBN about which motor is best .... typically around 80 to 90 N.m torque."

I've seen that number of 90 N.m. a fair bit, even on older Specialized bikes (2017).

I would expect to see efficiency as the big improvement (it probably is as the power conditioning roughly moves in step with computer advancements).

 

"I realised I had 13 minutes to get off the Traverse !!"

I've been in that same situation, but at the Dairy Shed at Conties ahahahaha. I climbed parallel to the Black Rhino trail and exited Oatlands with 2 minutes to spare whooops  . I had to go over the hill as my home was on the other side.

 

Very interesting @ motors. Do you know if the firmware update made transitions smoother?

 

@Power meter: eish, I should have said power meter as in a normal bicycle power meter (tells you how many watts you are producing). This is useful because power meters are a good absolute reference as to whether or not you're getting stronger and more efficient (when in context with HR). I currently use spider-based power meters that log to my bicycle computer. Does your Giant integrate with your bicycle computer? If so what kind of metrics do you see?

 

"must admit, I have wondered about the "limits" .... if you de-restrict it, how far can you go, how fast can you go (well this one is easy as you spin out at 40'ish...), more importantly, if you GUN it, how long will the motor last .....  not lessons I want to learn on a new bike, after voiding the warranty ....."

*Generally* stuff like this has a sweet spot, where it's very efficient. Usually there's an efficiency loss outside of the nominal operating range, exacerbated by temperature increases. Less of an issue on trails but drag also increases at a non-linear rate with speed, which is why aerodynamics on the trail aren't that important but are hugely important in road cycling. Driving an eBike above the speed limit would chow battery faster by virtue of disproportionately increased drag, increased heating on the switching components, etc. I assume, I don't know

Edited August 30, 2020 by aquaratza