Rant: Bad Deals

[ACE Cycles]

32 minutes ago, bertusras said:

Nico's issue stems from the fact that when he did find something in his budget, het got shafted by a seller who 'got a better offer'. It's happened to me before as well, and as annoying as it is, what can you do? Taking them to the small claims court might be an option, but it's not like you can sue for specific performance if the bike has already been sold on. So you're suing for damages, but you need to then prove damages, which doesn't seem like it's worth the hassle.

Heck, I was once on my way to pick up a bike (arranged, agreed price, everything) in Joburg when I got a call from the seller saying that there's someone else at his premises willing to pay 20% more, am I willing to match it. I was stunned! I said thanks but no thanks and turned around and went back home. Ridiculous.

The rating system is also a contentious issue in my opinion. I'm a firm believer that it should only be used when an actual transaction has taken place to prevent frivolous ratings from being issued nilly-willy, but that makes rating these dodgy non-transactions impossible as well.

When you have a deal, in principle, you can definitely review the seller accordingly if they back out of the transaction. 

Once a price has been agreed, method of payment and date and time of collecting then the deal has technically been concluded. 

[Thermophage]

38 minutes ago, Jewbacca said:

There are some killer deals on Frames in the classifieds. If you picked up the Large Silverback or the Med Giant you could easily build a killer trail bike within budget.

https://bikehub.co.za/classifieds/item/dual-suspension-mountain-bike-frames/482053/silverback-surface-frame-140mm

 

I know a guy who'll be selling a XL 2018 Transition Sentinel soon. Also a 140mm rear travel bike and what an amazing one at that too

[Mountain Bru]

59 minutes ago, ACE Cycles said:

When you have a deal, in principle, you can definitely review the seller accordingly if they back out of the transaction. 

Once a price has been agreed, method of payment and date and time of collecting then the deal has technically been concluded. 

Nope, thats not the way the rating system works (or is supposed to work). You have to actually buy something or sell something in order to rate someone. If one party backs out and nothing has changed hands, you shouldn't rate each other according to the "rules of the rating system". 

[Mountain Bru]

2 hours ago, eddy said:

If a contract was established, and you were prepared to honour your side of the agreement and pay R10 000, the claim would be for the delivery of the bike in question or for damages. The choice is yours. 

You may think that this is all theoretical but happens everyday when contracts of sale are breached and the aggrieved party chooses to exercise their rights under the contract. 

There are no specific rules for the sale of secondhand cycling equipment, and most people just allow the guy to get away with it, rate him down  and then complain on the Hub, which actually is the rational approach.

Your reply is in response to my comment that said I would issue summons in the small claims court. You may choose to do something else. I would choose to make the guy see the error of his ways, and make good his breach.

ps. 

You say above: "R10000 - the price of the Bike ( which you haven't paid anything for, but you believe you you have some rights too)" 

It is not a belief, it is a certainty.

If a contract has been established and the sale is perfecta, not only does the buyer  have rights, but so does the seller even if no cash or bicycle has  been exchanged.  You are entitled to the bike and he is entitled to the R10000.

IIRC, one of the consequences is that risk passes upon the contract establishment and if (through no fault of his own) the bike gets damaged or stolen before he hands it to you, you must still give him the R10000, and hope your insurance company will pay you out for your loss. 

It may not appear fair, but chat to your lawyer and check it out.

 

You seem to be a knowledgeable lawyer type person, so can you answer some other questions on this matter....

1. Does a whatsapp chat really constitute a legal contract? Or a bikehub messanger chat? Or an email? What about saying something on a forum? My greatness. Why do we bother signing things? 

2. This is all written from the perspective of the buyer not being able to buy something he's "contractually" entitled to. Do the same rules apply in reverse? Like if someone says they'll take something, and then changes their mind, can I demand that they pay me and take them to court? 

3. Howcome Takealot can cancel my order AFTER I've paid and refund me the money if they decide not to sell something to me, but on bikehub, you can be taken to court, or worse - teased on forums - if you do the same? Seems like a double standard. 

[Mountain Bru]

1 hour ago, Thermophage said:

I know a guy who'll be selling a XL 2018 Transition Sentinel soon. Also a 140mm rear travel bike and what an amazing one at that too

Dibs ????

(Not really. Please don't take me to court. This is not a contract. I reserve the right to not be sued)

[Thermophage]

8 minutes ago, Mountain Bru said:

Dibs ????

(Not really. Please don't take me to court. This is not a contract. I reserve the right to not be sued)

waaaahahahaa

[bertusras]

8 minutes ago, Mountain Bru said:

You seem to be a knowledgeable lawyer type person, so can you answer some other questions on this matter....

1. Does a whatsapp chat really constitute a legal contract? Or a bikehub messanger chat? Or an email? What about saying something on a forum? My greatness. Why do we bother signing things? 

2. This is all written from the perspective of the buyer not being able to buy something he's "contractually" entitled to. Do the same rules apply in reverse? Like if someone says they'll take something, and then changes their mind, can I demand that they pay me and take them to court? 

3. Howcome Takealot can cancel my order AFTER I've paid and refund me the money if they decide not to sell something to me, but on bikehub, you can be taken to court, or worse - teased on forums - if you do the same? Seems like a double standard. 

1. Yes. Even a verbal agreement constitutes a legal contract. We bother signing things avoid litigious disagreement down the line.

2. Yes. In that case suing for specific performance would be possible. If it's the other way around (bike has been sold to someone else), there is an impossibility of performance because the bike is no longer in existance.

3. Because by placing your order you agree (perhaps tacitly if you don't actually bother to read them) to Takealot's terms and conditions which gives them the right to cancel your order for a variety of reasons.

 

(not a legal expert, this is from my recollection of a semester or two of construction contract law, so it might all be incorrect)

[Jewbacca]

Okes, let's leave the legalities alone and help Nico find a bike? That seems way more constructive than simulated what ifs AND it shows him that the community is beneficial and still exists.

Some good deals being thrown around so far and hopefully, like Thermo, someone can step in and assist.

Nico, that Commencal is properly rad and in your budget. Have you enquired?

[Steady Spin]

1 hour ago, Jewbacca said:

I really want this....

https://bikehub.co.za/classifieds/item/dual-suspension-bikes/485189/2016-commencal-meta-v4-andorra-edition

I was wondering how much I could get for my carbon Titan Cypher 120mm yesterday and whether it would cover this bike and allow me to build a 'cheap' hard tail for AR

I know the owner and that bike is in excellent condition. Great deal.

[ACE Cycles]

42 minutes ago, Mountain Bru said:

Nope, thats not the way the rating system works (or is supposed to work). You have to actually buy something or sell something in order to rate someone. If one party backs out and nothing has changed hands, you shouldn't rate each other according to the "rules of the rating system". 

I'm probably wrong, but I've rated sellers accordingly when they back out of a deal that's been concluded in principle. My point of view is that it should be allowed, but I see your point. 

[Trashy]

That Commencal is one seriously sweet looking ride!

[Nico van Loggerenberg]

1 hour ago, Jewbacca said:

Okes, let's leave the legalities alone and help Nico find a bike? That seems way more constructive than simulated what ifs AND it shows him that the community is beneficial and still exists.

Some good deals being thrown around so far and hopefully, like Thermo, someone can step in and assist.

Nico, that Commencal is properly rad and in your budget. Have you enquired?

Thanks, appreciate the gesture and the engagement in good faith, as much fun as teasing strangers on the internet is. I did have a look at it - might be a bit too much travel for my requirements at this stage, with 160mm, but it's hot. 

[Jewbacca]

https://bikehub.co.za/classifieds/item/dual-suspension-bikes/486370/scott-spark-930

These are also banging.

 

[mrcg]

On 7/12/2021 at 10:44 AM, Jewbacca said:

Walk away for a while dude. You are just angry. 

The phrase 'corona fatigue' can be inserted to describe a general tendency to be snappy, short fused and frustrated with the multitude of issues the pandemic has thrown at us. Not least of all the way people treat each other.

Take a break, get a different perspective and try again.

No amount of rules or anger is going to change the fact that people are all behaving strangely.

I keep getting work calls at 9 at night, clients have started pestering me at all hours, boundaries seem to be a forgotten commodity and patience is almost non existant.

If you take a step back you will see this is endemic in all parts of society at the moment. Accepting it and doing your best to not ad to it is the 1st step in being less angry at everything. 

Having something to direct the anger at is one thing, but having less anger to direct is better

THIS ^^^^

In fact, I call it "Covid brain". A lot of people's brains are literally short-circuiting. We see it on a daily basis. The amount of s#@t people are stirring boggles the mind. Mental health at an all-time low! It's scary out there. Take a breath and walk away, better, go for a lekka ride (hopefully you have a bike), smell nature and reset. Works every time

[Mountain Bru]

7 hours ago, ACE Cycles said:

I'm probably wrong, but I've rated sellers accordingly when they back out of a deal that's been concluded in principle. My point of view is that it should be allowed, but I see your point. 

If you have a look at the terms of use here: https://forum.bikehub.co.za/docs/terms_of_use/

It says this:
"Ratings and feedback should only be submitted in the event that an agreement to transact was made. We reserve the right to remove feedback which relates to negotiations or communications where there was no agreement and/or a transaction did not take place."

I guess there's a few grey areas depending on how you understand things, so maybe we're both right, or both wrong. ????‍♂️

If replying "yes" to a message saying "Can I buy your bicycle" constitutes an "agreement to transact", then you can rate the guy according to the terms of service (and also take them to court if they don't buy your bicycle apparently).

But then it says that you can't rate people where "there was no agreement and/or a transaction did not take place", which maybe contradicts the the first sentence. ????‍♂️  If there was an agreement, but no transaction took place, then bikehub can remove the feedback? If you remove the "and/or" from the 2nd sentence and replace it with just "or" (which I think is a valid thing to do in the context), it seems the admins will remove feedback where there was no agreement OR if a transaction did not take place. I dunno. Can the team of legal experts please advice. 

But it's clear you shouldn't be rating people because they were rude in a message or you didn't like their tone or they asked if they could look at something and never pitched. Or if the kangaroo court was in session on a thread where someone was airing their grievances, and then everyone on the thread decided to give someone a bad rating as judgement for being a chop (which has happened, but I think people saw the light and deleted their feedback if I remember correctly)

 

[Jewbacca]

https://bikehub.co.za/classifieds/item/dual-suspension-bikes/394137/2017-giant-anthem-27