La Vuelta a España 2023

[Jewbacca]

For Jumbo, what is more spectacular?

A Kuss win, 1 man holding 2 x GTs in a year with potentially a go at Giro to hold all 3 at the same time or another Roglic Vuelta?

As fans, everyone loves the underdog story, but as a team, they are there to win.

I would love a Kuss win. It would be so cool. I loved it when G won the tour after breaking Froomie by accident up D'Huez and when Vingegaard won his first tour after Roglic crashed.

We have no idea what is being said over race radio or on the road. Maybe they have a plan.

I personally have no issue with any of the three of them winning. They all have a good reason and a great story behind them... One is an ex ski jumper, on an ex fish packer and one a self professed super dom who doesn't want to lead.

Jumbo will protect their interests as a team, then see what plays out re GC. What makes them awesome is the way they race. To win stages, to win bike races and let the GC look after itself.

It's a darn site better than the sky train controlling things to the point of choking the racing

['Dale]

6 hours ago, 'Dale said:

Big day. Big day. Angliru.

With Jumbo-Visma - team first. Whether it's Sepp, Primoz or Jonas. The only question for me is what is Movistar and UAE going to do to get onto the podium. 

The Belgian jersey will want to go for another stage win today. Bringing some pride to the jersey and redemption to his individual career. Questions will remain about what that slump was on the Tourmalet stage.

I suspect that Sepp will slide backwards down the GC snake and ladder board today. 3rd week fatigue is likely. He is only human.

 

Sorry, Sepp. Jou bliksem. What a ride. You make me want to train harder. Respect.

 So, it seems that the team agreed that the road will decide. Man on man on man. Sounds about right. 
The bigger picture is that the other teams will have to figure out how to tackle this juggernaut Jumbo’ in 2024.

No amount of cynicism and criticism for how Sepp was dropped will detract from the fact that this team is a force of nature.

Edited September 13, 2023 by 'Dale

[Maniax]

great perspectives!

[Underachiever]

I don't care about anything, team work, team orders, team tactics....whateva...

I am gonna be really, really really P1ssed off if Jonas/Rog are going to ride Sepp into the ground.

WTF happened to good ole "doing the right thing"!!!  

[Dirt Tracker]

Primoz: “I’d wish it was me, but at the moment Sepp is in the red, and I wish him to finish in red and it’s also my responsibility to do my best. At the end, the road will tell who wins this year, but in this race we all have the freedom to go for it.”

Sepp: "They are two big champions. I want my shot, but I'm happy to work for them when it's called for. It's been a beautiful experience. I came into this race with no expectations, I was just looking to help out the guys, like always, but then I came into this beautiful jersey and all the experiences that come with it."

Jonas: 'The win today was our main goal to keep the situation 1-2-3 in GC, I think everything went how we wanted. I think we can be happy with everything. To be honest, I'm still happy that Sepp is in the jersey. To be honest I actually hope that he will keep the jersey. I would love to see Sepp winning this Vuelta a España."

Let's see how things go tomorrow. There are time bonuses on the first pass of the finish climb, theoretically enough to give Jonas the jersey even before the final climb to the line. 

Primoz to jump 90km out with Remco and then claim he was just covering moves after telling Sepp 'just keep fighting, I'm just going for some bottles' 😄

[Vetplant]

I've got a bad feeling that Sepp's time in red will end at the end of today on the bloody last mountain stage.

It was fun while it lasted buddy.

If Sepp can't be in Red, then I'd prefer Jonas instead of Roglic... for the possibility to have him hold all three Jerseys at the same time by going for Pink next year.

[TheoG]

I'm sure Sepp dont want it on a silver platter, He would like to deserve & earn it.  From that point of view, I say all three of them go as hard as they can and let the chips fall where they may ... ☺️

Edited September 14, 2023 by TheoG

[DMZ]

Always been a fan of Jumbo, but feels like ego's are getting in the way. How many years hasn't Sepp helped Jonas & Primoz win tours. This was their opportunity to pay back that support.......😔

[lechatnoir]

It'll be hilarious if Sepp is pacing Rog up a hill in the 24 Giro and Rog's totally hosed, but Sepp rides away laughing shouting 'remember the angliruuuuu....'

[Jewbacca]

This might also be Roglic's last Hoorah at a GT win

At 33 he is definitely entering that 'can he' not 'will he' stage of his career.

Jonas at 26 still has a good few years left while this is Probably Kuss' best or only chance he will have to win a GT.

With no title sponsor announced post 2024 there may be changes, pay cuts and a disbanding of some of the team if budget cuts become a reality.

Everyone thought Pogacar would reign supreme at TDF for years after his two wins, but look what happened there.

Winning a GT is not something one gives away for sentiment and Roglic and Jonas are winners.

Being emotionally involved in sport is a strange phenomenon. None of us here (except John and Adrian and one or two others) actually know these guys. I'm quite happy to sit back and enjoy the entertainment and absolutely brilliant bike racing.

We also can't forget Roglic won Giro earlier in the year, so HE could have the distinction of winning 2 GTs in a calendar year.

So many permutations. Gosh we are lucky to be alive and watching this unfold

[Kenosi]

14 minutes ago, lechatnoir said:

It'll be hilarious if Sepp is pacing Rog up a hill in the 24 Giro and Rog's totally hosed, but Sepp rides away laughing shouting 'remember the angliruuuuu....'

Sepp: "keep fighting, keep believing"🤣

[edgarblount]

I didn't know handing out Grand Tours on a silver platter is now a thing. When did we get to the point where fans now expect riders to just give away a GT? A whole GT, not just a stage, a GT!

Is this part of the everybody-is-a-winner-and-gets-a-medal movement?

I still hope GC Kuss can win La Vuelta but if one of the other two wins, so be it. I'll still be happy for the team.

[DMZ]

15 minutes ago, edgarblount said:

I didn't know handing out Grand Tours on a silver platter is now a thing. When did we get to the point where fans now expect riders to just give away a GT? A whole GT, not just a stage, a GT!

Is this part of the everybody-is-a-winner-and-gets-a-medal movement?

I still hope GC Kuss can win La Vuelta but if one of the other two wins, so be it. I'll still be happy for the team.

There have been numerous cases where over the years the GT win, has been given to a team mate. Goes back as far as LeMond.... its certainly not about everyone being a winner. Its respecting your Team mate and supporting them, for years of support they've given you. Just a thought use it dont..

[NickGM]

3 minutes ago, edgarblount said:

I didn't know handing out Grand Tours on a silver platter is now a thing. When did we get to the point where fans now expect riders to just give away a GT? A whole GT, not just a stage, a GT!

Is this part of the everybody-is-a-winner-and-gets-a-medal movement?

I still hope GC Kuss can win La Vuelta but if one of the other two wins, so be it. I'll still be happy for the team.

Ya, Sepp is on the team to be a domestique. It's what he signed up for. Jonas and Roglic are there to win the GC. And they are clearly stronger riders. Generally speaking, Sepp can't hold their wheel when things get really tough. And we've even seen that in this tour. Sepp wasn't attacked yesterday by his own team, despite what thousands of angry fans are saying. He just couldn't keep up, and if anything it looks like the other two didn't ride full gas to the end for that very reason.

So what we are really saying is that they should let the weaker rider win because everyone really likes him. The argument that he deserves special treatment because of all the work he did for those guys in the past is not much of an argument. He's there to work for them and likely enjoys a handsome salary and the prestige of being in a GC winning team, winning bonuses, etc.

But... running a team is an exercise in publicity too. The sponsors want winners, sure, but they also want to be loved by the public. So for me it's in Jumbo's best interest as a business to win AND get the nice guy over the line first, or face some sort of public backlash, whether it is warranted or not. Then there is also the team dynamics to consider. If he gets dropped today and loses red for good, will he really be willing to empty his tank next summer for JV? Unless something really drastic happens, he can win from here.

Could be pyrrhic victory if they don't at least try to help Sepp win.

Again, all just my opinion. And re-reading this I sound like an important part of Team JV's Management, instead of the keyboard warrior that I am.

[TheoG]

1 minute ago, DMZ said:

There have been numerous cases where over the years the GT win, has been given to a team mate. Goes back as far as LeMond.... its certainly not about everyone being a winner. Its respecting your Team mate and supporting them, for years of support they've given you. Just a thought use it dont..

And, yes, Sepp deserved the respect multiple times, helping Primoz and helping Jonas securing their wins.

[MongooseMan]

28 minutes ago, edgarblount said:

I didn't know handing out Grand Tours on a silver platter is now a thing. When did we get to the point where fans now expect riders to just give away a GT? A whole GT, not just a stage, a GT!

Is this part of the everybody-is-a-winner-and-gets-a-medal movement?

I still hope GC Kuss can win La Vuelta but if one of the other two wins, so be it. I'll still be happy for the team.

This is an interesting one, and something I've been grappling with.

Should you be "given" a grand tour?  No

Does a grand tour winner do so solely on their own effort?  No, they have domestiques pulling them up mountains, protecting them, helping them when they're low, covering attacks, etc.

 

I feel Sepp is kind of in this weird grey zone where he has no domestiques who can help him, and the 2 guys who could help him are arguably stronger than him right now. To say he must win the Vuelta on his own strength is also something of a double standard.

But: Most of the reason they're stronger than him is because HE pulled them up mountains in the Giro and the TDF this year, and last year, and the year before that.

Long story short, I don't know, and I'm not 100% sure JV know.

Today will tell, they can't hide on the mountains today. Either they ride for Sepp, or they drop him.

Edited September 14, 2023 by MongooseMan