LCHF - Low Carb High Fat Diet Ver 2

[DaleE]

Nope. All you need for keto is limited carbohydrates. Gluconeogenesis is overblown, from what I've read. 

 

That's a fairly sweeping generalization and certainly not true for everyone. 

I know (from months of careful meal planning and daily blood testing of ketones), that protein has a very definite effect on blood ketone levels.

 

Obviously things like exercise, timing of food, fasting also play a role, so it's sometimes hard to isolate cause and effect; but my personal 'limit' is around 120g protein per day before I start to see a drop in levels.

 

You are correct that fat can be burned from reserves, but only in a low insulin state ... and we know that protein spikes insulin in some folk .... and fat burning stops. You do need some protein every day, but it's probably less than you think.

 

The point is that everyone is different and if you can get away with lots of protein, then you are lucky.

 

The general rule for sustained Keto is "Low carb, moderate protein and high fat".

Edited March 9, 2017 by DaleE

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

That's a fairly sweeping generalization and certainly not true for everyone. 

I know (from months of careful meal planning and daily blood testing of ketones), that protein has a very definite effect on blood ketone levels.

 

Obviously things like exercise, timing of food, fasting also play a role, so it's sometimes hard to isolate cause and effect; but my personal 'limit' is around 120g protein per day before I start to see a drop in levels.

 

You are correct that fat can be burned from reserves, but only in a low insulin state ... and we know that protein spikes insulin in some folk .... and fat burning stops. You do need some protein every day, but it's probably less than you think.

 

The point is that everyone is different and if you can get away with lots of protein, then you are lucky.

 

The general rule for sustained Keto is "Low carb, moderate protein and high fat".

yeah, that's why I amended my post for the differences in some people. Oh - and it's also HF relative to the SAD, afaik. If you've worked out what your protein requirement is, then great. Fat is the macro which you'd adjust to either lose or gain weight. And in some cases, it can get REALLY high...

Edited March 9, 2017 by Myles Mayhew

[lechatnoir]

Nope. All you need for keto is limited carbohydrates. Gluconeogenesis is overblown, from what I've read. Also, you need protein to ensure that your LBM doesn't deteriorate. The ratio of protein to LBM varies depending on who you speak to and which calculator you use...

 

From measuring ketones and making (and eating) biltong at the same time, I've found gluconeogenesis to be real

 

The HF portion is for those people who don't have a lot of HF in them themselves. Fat can either be burnt from deitary intake, or from reserves. At the end of it all, total calories ingested do still matter. 

 

From experience, this is not correct Myles. I'll point you to Steven Phinney and Jeff Vollek

 

But there are also several different "versions" of keto. Some SWEAR by adding as much fat as possible, some just say that as long as your carbs are lower than a certain level you will remain in ketosis. 

 

Well, you need to be sensible. Eating a 10000 calorie/day diet made of 8000 calories of fat is not clever. It's just too much - you probably need far less as a regular person

 

Depends on your goals, after all. And it depends on the person. Experiment. Record. Adapt. 

 

True dat

[lechatnoir]

yeah, that's why I amended my post for the differences in some people. Oh - and it's also HF relative to the SAD, afaik. If you've worked out what your protein requirement is, then great. Fat is the macro which you'd adjust to either lose or gain weight. And in some cases, it can get REALLY high...

 

Not quite. HF is really a metric, in this case 60-80% fat in diet. Not really compared to anything. Again, if you drop the fat and keep the calories, you need to replace the fat calories with something... protein or carb calories. These cause other issues....

 

The trick with fat is that higher consumption leads to more rapid satiety. So if you're eating HF and to satiety, you'll probably end up eating fewer calories. You simply get full quicker

 

There was a study (http://www.thelivinlowcarbshow.com/shownotes/15112/1164-dr-kevin-hall-defends-his-controversial-nusi-funded-low-carb-study-results/)  that showed the difference in energy expenditure between LCHF and SAD was 50cal/day when eating a 2000 cal/day diet. That's ONE apple, so basically nothing. The key here is the satiety part.

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Not quite. HF is really a metric, in this case 60-80% fat in diet. Not really compared to anything. Again, if you drop the fat and keep the calories, you need to replace the fat calories with something... protein or carb calories. These cause other issues....

 

The trick with fat is that higher consumption leads to more rapid satiety. So if you're eating HF and to satiety, you'll probably end up eating fewer calories. You simply get full quicker

 

There was a study (http://www.thelivinlowcarbshow.com/shownotes/15112/1164-dr-kevin-hall-defends-his-controversial-nusi-funded-low-carb-study-results/)  that showed the difference in energy expenditure between LCHF and SAD was 50cal/day when eating a 2000 cal/day diet. That's ONE apple, so basically nothing. The key here is the satiety part.

Yeah. Can't argue with that. 

 

Personally - I'm limiting fat 'cos I'm fat enough. LOL. Also trying as bloody hard as possible to limit carbs. Not always practical to follow, but yeah. 

 

Oh - and I don't shy away from fat. Far from it. I just don't agree with the mantra that some people have of "eat as much fat as you like" whilst at the same time not monitoring calorie intake. It's VERY easy to over-eat, even on LCHF. Satiety signals and habit, together with sneaky calories in snacks. 

[lechatnoir]

Yeah. Can't argue with that. 

 

Personally - I'm limiting fat 'cos I'm fat enough. LOL. Also trying as bloody hard as possible to limit carbs. Not always practical to follow, but yeah. 

 

Oh - and I don't shy away from fat. Far from it. I just don't agree with the mantra that some people have of "eat as much fat as you like" whilst at the same time not monitoring calorie intake. It's VERY easy to over-eat, even on LCHF. Satiety signals and habit, together with sneaky calories in snacks. 

 

It's your hormones... No, really, it is... Those get wacky and make you hungry and give you cravings. Do some research on fasting, then prepare yourself... Flip, this is going to sound like a Herbalife schpiel... "Want to lose weight now? Ask me how"

 

Fasting is like a factory reset, and no, it's not an eating disorder, and yes, you CAN manage without food. 

[MTBeer]

WTF?! 

 

So it's safe to assume you're on LCHP skip the fat unless you want it. AKA Keto. 

No not high protein. probably around 100g per day. I'm working on the broad assumption of 25% protein for meat.

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

It's your hormones... No, really, it is... Those get wacky and make you hungry and give you cravings. Do some research on fasting, then prepare yourself... Flip, this is going to sound like a Herbalife schpiel... "Want to lose weight now? Ask me how"

 

Fasting is like a factory reset, and no, it's not an eating disorder, and yes, you CAN manage without food. 

Oh, I know that. Leptin. And insulin blocks leptin. And then also, if you've got enough fat deposits the body produces boatloads of leptin naturally. But if you eat sugary stuff and have insulin spikes, those leptin parcels don't reach your brain to tell you you're full. And so the cycle starts. 

 

Simplistically, but yeah. 

[MrJacques]

Where can I find nuts at reasonable prices? The prices have more than doubled since 3 years ago. I blame all you banters

[Dullscalpel]

Where can I find nuts at reasonable prices? The prices have more than doubled since 3 years ago. I blame all you banters

Fruit and veg tend to have specials and the prices are fairly decent. Else, buy in bulk

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Aaaaaand the HPCSA lodges an appeal. 

 

LOL. Noakes's lawyers now saying that instead of going quietly into the night, they'll rip them to shreds and go after all of the instigators. Pro bono for Noakes, of course. 

 

LOL. 

 

http://foodmed.net/2017/05/14/noakes-hpcsa-not-guilty-appeal/

[lechatnoir]

Found this interesting podcast for anyone interested - http://cycling360media.com/blood-glucose-and-cycling/

[Pah Bear]

Found this interesting podcast for anyone interested - http://cycling360media.com/blood-glucose-and-cycling/

Been loving this thread for a long time. Mostly just reading and gaining further incite for personal use. Thanx to everyone for sharing your experiences.

 

This podcast answered one of the items I've been kinda struggling with, i.e is it necessary to really eat something on 2/3 hr rides. I find on most rides I do not have to eat anything but for things like the DC (long stuff), I carry some protein (dry wors) and carbs (dates, etc) with me. Been working for me quite fine.

 

I've not used energy drinks at all and wondered about what it does to you if you do? Been drawn to putting Rehydrat Sport in my bottle sometimes. It definitely contain sugar as well as all the other odd-mints. Not sure if it even has any other benefit other then the placebo effect.

 

Any thoughts?

[lechatnoir]

I've not used energy drinks at all and wondered about what it does to you if you do? Been drawn to putting Rehydrat Sport in my bottle sometimes. It definitely contain sugar as well as all the other odd-mints. Not sure if it even has any other benefit other then the placebo effect.

 

Any thoughts?

 

I guess the answer is: it depends. not helpful at all I know, but what does one thing for one person does another for someone else. You could try and experiment and see. Rehydrat is a good thing and the amount of sugar is low, so may not make a difference at all.

 

Personally, I've not ridden with anything other than water and espresso for 12months. But that's my personal journey. Not bonking is such a blessed relief. I just add salt to my bottles and I'm good to go

[mtbrider]

HI Hubbers.

 

I have been reading this thread to see if I can gather some info to help me. I will appreciate any inputs and help.

 

Long story short: I got some bad news regarding my back and need to lose weight, lots of it. I used to weigh 110kg and the specialist said I need to weigh 10% under my ideal weight which is about 80kg.  I have lost about 6kg from the 19th of July.

 

I really cut down on carbs and it seems to work but I used to eat a big bowl of oats before I go out for a ride longer than 2h's. Longer than that I would eat Jungle bars to keep me fueled.

 

One of my main concerns is bonking when I cycle because of my body being use to the carbs. What do you guys eat on the bike?

 

The other thing I read that does not make sense is the fact that you should not take in alot of protein. I thought you must pack in the protein, mix in the fat and cut the carbs. 

 

As I said before any help would be appreciated to get where I need to be. 

 

Stephan

[DaleE]

 

As I said before any help would be appreciated to get where I need to be. 

 

 

Morning Stephan,

 

There are many questions in your post and Im sure you have many more. You certainly will have after starting to do some reading about LCHF.  BUT, yes you are correct, to loose weight (and generally be healthier, but that is a different topic) cut the carbs as low as you can. Obviously remove all sugar, fruit juice and refined carbs (bread, pasta, etc).

 

in terms of sheer volume I find my diet ends up consisting of mainly veggies, salads, etc with a moderate amount of meat - about 1 hamburger patty sided piece of meat with each meal - and the rest is fat. Fat included the fat in nuts, olive oil, etc, etc.

 

I don't subscribe to the idea of eating extra fat anymore. I won't go looking for fat bombs or bullet proof coffee, etc.  Your tastes may vary.

 

Your initial 6kg weight loss is probably mainly water. It may not continue at that rate. Just be patient if it slows down.

 

what to eat on the bike. Here you will get 1000 opinions For training and low heart rate rides, I don't eat for up to 5 hrs - water only. Thereafter nuts.

For racing, I use date balls ... and nuts. But bear in mind that I'm an weekend warrior so not winning any races, but aim to finish in the top 25% for most events.

 

I strongly suggest you have a look at the 2 books by taylor and phinney.

The art and science of low carb living

The art and science of low carb performance

They will answer many of your questions in a fairly simple way.

 

After that, try Primal Performance by Sisson if you want to get into endurance sport with low carb.

 

Lastly, 2 words of caution:

1. be patient with your performance on the bike. it may take a SERIOUS knock in the next 4-6 weeks as your body learns to burn fat instead of carbs.  this is normal.  Take the opportunity to do some lower intensity base training.

2. Fasting is also a great way to loose weight, and is somewhat fashionable right now, but don't even THINK about if for the next 2 months. Let your body convert to burning fat properly and then the fasting will be easier and MUCH more effective.