Is motorcycling allowed?

[CAAD4]

7 of us at school had various versions of the DT 175. Most of us fell ourselves mo@rtoe wheelieing. Some had Supertrapp pipes, others YZ tailpipes. Aah the smell of R40 2 stroke oil.

Edited July 25, 2020 by CAAD4

[alfiebadseed]

A man, his bike and his dog...

IMG-20200723-WA0002.jpg

Did a trip around CT with them Edited July 25, 2020 by alfiebadseed

[patches]

I saw today Yamaha South Africa said the T7 will be around the 200k mark. That from a bike described as “a big dirt bike” I think they’ve well out-priced themselves with this one considering you can get a KTM790 Adventure R at that price point.

 

I think it could have been a great bike in the South African market if it was priced correctly.

 

Wait, is that for stock standard Tenere 700?

 

If so that's pretty interesting.

 

Here in NZ I've seen a few T700's on the road. They retail for 17,000 NZD (approx R189,000 at current exchange rate). So not too far off the 200k mark you mention.

 

However, the orange Austrians are considerably more expensive here. An Adventure 790R retails for 24,500 NZD (approx R272,000), so the Tenere is a way more affordable option.

 

I remember a while back I compared Husky & KTM prices between SA, NZ, Oz, the US, and Austria, and SA was significantly cheaper than all the others. Yes even Austria.

 

In fact here's the 790 R pricing, *normalized to ZAR on today's exchange rate:

 

SA - R210,000

NZ - R272,000*

Oz - R276,371*

USA - R228,600*

Austria - R299,500*

 

So I guess with the T700 it's not so much that it's being priced too high in SA, but more that the KTM is being priced rather competitively.

 

Not a bad problem to have

Edited July 26, 2020 by patches

[the nerd]

Wait, is that for stock standard Tenere 700?

 

If so that's pretty interesting.

 

Here in NZ I've seen a few T700's on the road. They retail for 17,000 NZD (approx R189,000 at current exchange rate). So not too far off the 200k mark you mention.

 

However, the orange Austrians are considerably more expensive here. An Adventure 790R retails for 24,500 NZD (approx R272,000), so the Tenere is a way more affordable option.

 

I remember a while back I compared Husky & KTM prices between SA, NZ, Oz, the US, and Austria, and SA was significantly cheaper than all the others. Yes even Austria.

 

In fact here's the 790 R pricing, *normalized to ZAR on today's exchange rate:

 

SA - R210,000

NZ - R272,000*

Oz - R276,371*

USA - R228,600*

Austria - R299,500*

 

So I guess with the T700 it's not so much that it's being priced too high in SA, but more that the KTM is being priced rather competitively.

 

Not a bad problem to have

I was told by the guys at an orange dealer that in SA we get much better pricing than the rest of the world. They have even had guys come here and buy bikes and send them back to the EU....

[Letum911]

Sooooo, I'm like a little kid before Christmas. 

 

Ordered myself a top box from "X Strong Adventure boxes" (local guys in Richardsbay), was couriered today so if aramax moves their butts I should be able to do my work trip on Thursday to the NW on the bike!!

[patches]

I was told by the guys at an orange dealer that in SA we get much better pricing than the rest of the world. They have even had guys come here and buy bikes and send them back to the EU....

 

Yup! I was once tempted to buy a bike in SA and have it shipped over. Especially as NZ has no import duty on cars or motorcycles.

 

The only issue is that in order to road register the bike it would require a Statement of Compliance from the local importing agent, and the chances of them issuing such a document for a grey import is slim-to-none, unless that bike was owned in the country of purchase for at least 6 months (so a used bike). This only really applies to those immigrating.

 

However bringing in a brand new bike could still be worthwhile if the plan is to dedicate it to off-road use.

 

I think one can 

[Andymann]

Yup! I was once tempted to buy a bike in SA and have it shipped over. Especially as NZ has no import duty on cars or motorcycles.

 

The only issue is that in order to road register the bike it would require a Statement of Compliance from the local importing agent, and the chances of them issuing such a document for a grey import is slim-to-none, unless that bike was owned in the country of purchase for at least 6 months (so a used bike). This only really applies to those immigrating.

 

However bringing in a brand new bike could still be worthwhile if the plan is to dedicate it to off-road use.

 

I think one can 

I remember trying to help someone who had left to NZ and was trying to get their BWhiz registered.  I even got the required compliance letter from Japan.  But because the BWhiz never officially went to NZ, in the words of our famous Vegan and Everesting King, registration was "not going to f-ing happen" (even with the right gearing)

[GrantMcD1]

Wait, is that for stock standard Tenere 700?

 

If so that's pretty interesting.

 

Here in NZ I've seen a few T700's on the road. They retail for 17,000 NZD (approx R189,000 at current exchange rate). So not too far off the 200k mark you mention.

 

However, the orange Austrians are considerably more expensive here. An Adventure 790R retails for 24,500 NZD (approx R272,000), so the Tenere is a way more affordable option.

 

I remember a while back I compared Husky & KTM prices between SA, NZ, Oz, the US, and Austria, and SA was significantly cheaper than all the others. Yes even Austria.

 

In fact here's the 790 R pricing, *normalized to ZAR on today's exchange rate:

 

SA - R210,000

NZ - R272,000*

Oz - R276,371*

USA - R228,600*

Austria - R299,500*

 

So I guess with the T700 it's not so much that it's being priced too high in SA, but more that the KTM is being priced rather competitively.

 

Not a bad problem to have

 Yip as I understand it that will be the price of the bike in stock trim.

 

I have chatted to a KTM dealer regarding their pricing and have heard why KTM is so competitively priced in SA. Apparently the SA market is very important to KTM as we produce high quality off-road riders and in general the riding conditions are tough on the bike. So if KTM has the market share in the South African market the bike is seeing as being built strong.

 

That being said despite KTM's being competitively priced, the offroad Yamahas are generally cheaper than the equivalent KTM...so why is the T700 less competitively priced than the rest of the Yamaha range? 

[patches]

 Yip as I understand it that will be the price of the bike in stock trim.

 

I have chatted to a KTM dealer regarding their pricing and have heard why KTM is so competitively priced in SA. Apparently the SA market is very important to KTM as we produce high quality off-road riders and in general the riding conditions are tough on the bike. So if KTM has the market share in the South African market the bike is seeing as being built strong.

 

That being said despite KTM's being competitively priced, the offroad Yamahas are generally cheaper than the equivalent KTM...so why is the T700 less competitively priced than the rest of the Yamaha range? 

 

Not so, interestingly enough.

 

A Yamaha WR450F (@R150,000) is about R22,000 more expensive than a KTM EXC-F 450 (@R128,000), and even R14,000 more than a KTM 450 Six-Days edition (@R136,000).

 

A Yamaha YZ250FX is about R7,000 more than a KTM EXC-F 250. It seems it's only the Yamaha 2-stroke enduro (YZ250X) that is cheaper than its KTM counterpart (KTM EXC 250 TPI), but that's possibly because the KTM is fuel injected, and the Austrians pretty much own the 2-stroke enduro market, so they name their price).

 

So it appears that Yamaha, in general, is taking the globalised pricing approach, and not adjusting to meet the competition in the local market.

 

Perhaps it's because the SA offroad-adventure market teeters on the two extremes. I'd estimate that small nimble 2-stroke KTM/Huskies and big fat BMW GS1200's account for the majority of the bike sales in the offroad-to-adventure segment, with very little going towards the dual-sport or lightweight adventure categories.

 

In Australia, NZ, and the US, those markets are pretty big. The Suzuki DR650 is like the equivalent of a 2-wheeled Hilux here. Both Aus and NZ love the 660 Tenere too.

 

Ultimately I guess it's up to the market research guru's. Whether they got it right or wrong is still to be seen, but either way I don't see the T700 becoming their bread and butter in a market where most riders would rather go for a GS1200.

 

 

Edited July 28, 2020 by patches

[Grebel]

Since around the mid 2000s, manufacturers made the decision to focus on the big bore adventure bikes and stop development on the travel enduro segment. (650 singles). Sure you could still get an XR, DR, or KLR, but not much happened there ITO development or excitement.

 

BMW had the 800 but it didn't really fit in. Not really big enough to run with the big boys and maybe a bit porky and posh to run with the singles who were more off road focused.

 

IMHO the last good travel enduro was the KTM 640 A. The 690 is also a great bike but more of a big enduro bike. A rally kit adds fuel etc but at a hefty price.... Besides modified 525's etc not much filled that gap. Forums have been alight for ages with banter about no one filling that gap until recently with the launch of the 790 and the T7. Pity they priced them the way they did....

[WrightJnr]

Not so, interestingly enough.

 

A Yamaha WR450F (@R150,000) is about R22,000 more expensive than a KTM EXC-F 450 (@R128,000), and even R14,000 more than a KTM 450 Six-Days edition (@R136,000).

 

A Yamaha YZ250FX is about R7,000 more than a KTM EXC-F 250. It seems it's only the Yamaha 2-stroke enduro (YZ250X) that is cheaper than its KTM counterpart (KTM EXC 250 TPI), but that's possibly because the KTM is fuel injected, and the Austrians pretty much own the 2-stroke enduro market, so they name their price).

 

So it appears that Yamaha, in general, is taking the globalised pricing approach, and not adjusting to meet the competition in the local market.

 

Perhaps it's because the SA offroad-adventure market teeters on the two extremes. I'd estimate that small nimble 2-stroke KTM/Huskies and big fat BMW GS1200's account for the majority of the bike sales in the offroad-to-adventure segment, with very little going towards the dual-sport or lightweight adventure categories.

 

In Australia, NZ, and the US, those markets are pretty big. The Suzuki DR650 is like the equivalent of a 2-wheeled Hilux here. Both Aus and NZ love the 660 Tenere too.

 

Ultimately I guess it's up to the market research guru's. Whether they got it right or wrong is still to be seen, but either way I don't see the T700 becoming their bread and butter in a market where most riders would rather go for a GS1200.

 

 

I’m sure KTM is also using volume as a price play in SA. They sell loads more bikes that Yamaha and all the others. Also, KTM market their new year bikes well and turn over more upgrades. Yamaha owners don’t replace as much so need to extract more profit per unit.

[RocknRolla]

Yesterday received confirmation of a job in nelspruit next week. I am so excited to ride my bike there I couldn’t sleep last night...

Needless to say, I’m hitting sabie roads on the way back, some dirt to dullstroom....

[GrantMcD1]

Not so, interestingly enough.

 

A Yamaha WR450F (@R150,000) is about R22,000 more expensive than a KTM EXC-F 450 (@R128,000), and even R14,000 more than a KTM 450 Six-Days edition (@R136,000).

 

A Yamaha YZ250FX is about R7,000 more than a KTM EXC-F 250. It seems it's only the Yamaha 2-stroke enduro (YZ250X) that is cheaper than its KTM counterpart (KTM EXC 250 TPI), but that's possibly because the KTM is fuel injected, and the Austrians pretty much own the 2-stroke enduro market, so they name their price).

 

So it appears that Yamaha, in general, is taking the globalised pricing approach, and not adjusting to meet the competition in the local market.

 

Perhaps it's because the SA offroad-adventure market teeters on the two extremes. I'd estimate that small nimble 2-stroke KTM/Huskies and big fat BMW GS1200's account for the majority of the bike sales in the offroad-to-adventure segment, with very little going towards the dual-sport or lightweight adventure categories.

 

In Australia, NZ, and the US, those markets are pretty big. The Suzuki DR650 is like the equivalent of a 2-wheeled Hilux here. Both Aus and NZ love the 660 Tenere too.

 

Ultimately I guess it's up to the market research guru's. Whether they got it right or wrong is still to be seen, but either way I don't see the T700 becoming their bread and butter in a market where most riders would rather go for a GS1200.

 

 

Thanks Patches, I based my assumption that the Yamahas were cheaper based on the 2 strokes. Which would make sense because the Yamaha 2 strokes still have 2006 tech in them. ????

[Andymann]

I’m sure KTM is also using volume as a price play in SA. They sell loads more bikes that Yamaha and all the others. Also, KTM market their new year bikes well and turn over more upgrades. Yamaha owners don’t replace as much so need to extract more profit per unit.

 

Being a horder, I kept all my data from my time at Yamaha.... back then we used to religiously track the AMID stats - I pulled them up from Jul2010 - at that time, Yamaha had 40.5% of the MX market, followed by Honda with 31.8%, Kawasaki at 10.9% and KTM with 10.5%.

 

Our MX strategy was simple - keep the bikes cheap, the spares cheaper and offer really good Race Team backup.  That all changed when Bidvest took over.

 

The last set of Data I have, Yamaha had YTD sold 1940 units, KTM 691 and Suzuki 1062.  I use Suzuki because I chatted to the Motorcycle Manager of Suzuki a few weeks back just to catch up and he said Suzuki now outsells Yamaha by almost double.

 

What Bidvest got wrong was trying to market Yamaha as a Luxury brand - it was never going to work.

[patches]

I’m sure KTM is also using volume as a price play in SA. They sell loads more bikes that Yamaha and all the others. Also, KTM market their new year bikes well and turn over more upgrades. Yamaha owners don’t replace as much so need to extract more profit per unit.

 

Thanks Patches, I based my assumption that the Yamahas were cheaper based on the 2 strokes. Which would make sense because the Yamaha 2 strokes still have 2006 tech in them.

 

 

Being a horder, I kept all my data from my time at Yamaha.... back then we used to religiously track the AMID stats - I pulled them up from Jul2010 - at that time, Yamaha had 40.5% of the MX market, followed by Honda with 31.8%, Kawasaki at 10.9% and KTM with 10.5%.

 

Our MX strategy was simple - keep the bikes cheap, the spares cheaper and offer really good Race Team backup.  That all changed when Bidvest took over.

 

The last set of Data I have, Yamaha had YTD sold 1940 units, KTM 691 and Suzuki 1062.  I use Suzuki because I chatted to the Motorcycle Manager of Suzuki a few weeks back just to catch up and he said Suzuki now outsells Yamaha by almost double.

 

What Bidvest got wrong was trying to market Yamaha as a Luxury brand - it was never going to work.

 

Yeah, I guess looking at it that way, KTM's are like BMW 3 series in SA. They're not cheap, but people will still buy them, so based on the volume sold the price can drop.

 

As GrantMcD1 mentioned, SA has a big hard enduro scene. And the Austrians (KTM & Husky) almost have a monopoly on that market. So it makes sense that their sales would be up there.

 

NZ, Oz, and the US seem lean more towards the MX and GNCC styles of racing, and in general Japanese bikes outsell in that market.

 

The Kiwis still see the Austrians as the luxury brand and assume the high-maintenance mentality that comes with it.

 

This seems to be evident whenever I've been out for organised trail rides, popped over to the bike park, or gone for a ride on one of the popular off-roading beaches. There's about a 70:30 split between Japanese and Austrian bikes. In general the Austrian bikes never seem to be more than 3yrs old, and they're usually looking all shiny and pampered, whilst there are plenty of the Japanese bikes that must be close on 10yrs old, or older (like Suzuki RM 2-strokes), and one can see that many of them have had a hard life, yet they keep on going. So I guess that's why the Kiwis just keep trusting and buying those brands.

 

This also got me thinking to a more generalised observation I have made over the 4-odd years of living in NZ.

 

Kiwis and Aussies seem to be less brand and image conscious than us Saffers. This becomes immediately evident as one drives around their cities, towns, and suburbs. Loads of cars we would call "skedonks", parked outside houses worth R10m- R20m+. Station wagons are preferred over sedans as practicality outweighs sleek-design, and the humble Subaru Legacy station-wagon is pretty much the national-vehicle. 

 

Cities like Auckland, Sydney and Melbourne are more on the flashy side, with the cosmopolitan lifestyle. But still way fever luxury Germans cruising around than one would see in JHB.

 

And perhaps this relates in turn to the motorcycle industry.

 

[Spokey]

Since around the mid 2000s, manufacturers made the decision to focus on the big bore adventure bikes and stop development on the travel enduro segment. (650 singles). Sure you could still get an XR, DR, or KLR, but not much happened there ITO development or excitement.

BMW had the 800 but it didn't really fit in. Not really big enough to run with the big boys and maybe a bit porky and posh to run with the singles who were more off road focused.

IMHO the last good travel enduro was the KTM 640 A. The 690 is also a great bike but more of a big enduro bike. A rally kit adds fuel etc but at a hefty price.... Besides modified 525's etc not much filled that gap. Forums have been alight for ages with banter about no one filling that gap until recently with the launch of the 790 and the T7. Pity they priced them the way they did....

One of my mates here has just sold his 690 but kept both his older 640 adventure and 950. The reason above why I have kept my agricultural KLR and looking at the possible pricing of the Tenere700 the KLR is going to be a keeper.

I have just done the Eagle Mike Doohicky conversion and the suspension is upgraded. Perhaps I may even go in for the 700cc big bore kit. One could argue the cost effectiveness on an old bike/design, but it sure is cheaper than a new bike. In any event even 5 to 8 hp more on a KLR would be noticeable!!!(even though it will still look ancient)