conversations with a table mountain mugger - groundup article

[marko35s]

Eish, so sad to hear people still arguing with their heads in the sand.

 

You are a product of your surroundings. Reading that article and seeing the circumstances Norton grew up in, it is very few that will make different choices. No one can excuse or justify the crimes he committed. He had parents that further enforced what his society espoused.

 

I grew up in such an environment and had parents that wished for us better than circumstances provided, so they moved heaven and earth instill in us good moral values and move the family out at he earliest. Today, I can go back there and see friends I grew up with, still stuck in the same circumstance.

 

Society in South Africa has been so skewed by man made circumstances and today, solutions to reverse this situation is bedraggled by a government that unfortunately has lost its way. I trust that not withstanding this reality, as South Africans we will build a better future for all.

 

I should not be surprised by the plethora of views of the "haves" that fail to take into account the reality we come from. Not too many on this forum have experienced what life choices one is confronted with in the ghettos, slums and gang infested badlands of our country.

 

Our past will for a long time haunt us until we come together for the benefit of all our society.

 

Forever hopeful that the opinions like that of "Mr X's" will recede over time. The alternative is to see a perpetuation of life as in Donald (Ducks) America. Please no.

What made your parents different?

If they can 'chose' to change the circumstances why not others?

[Thor Buttox]

Eish, so sad to hear people still arguing with their heads in the sand.

 

You are a product of your surroundings. Reading that article and seeing the circumstances Norton grew up in, it is very few that will make different choices. No one can excuse or justify the crimes he committed. He had parents that further enforced what his society espoused.

 

I grew up in such an environment and had parents that wished for us better than circumstances provided, so they moved heaven and earth instill in us good moral values and move the family out at he earliest. Today, I can go back there and see friends I grew up with, still stuck in the same circumstance.

 

Society in South Africa has been so skewed by man made circumstances and today, solutions to reverse this situation is bedraggled by a government that unfortunately has lost its way. I trust that not withstanding this reality, as South Africans we will build a better future for all.

 

I should not be surprised by the plethora of views of the "haves" that fail to take into account the reality we come from. Not too many on this forum have experienced what life choices one is confronted with in the ghettos, slums and gang infested badlands of our country.

 

Our past will for a long time haunt us until we come together for the benefit of all our society.

 

Forever hopeful that the opinions like that of "Mr X's" will recede over time. The alternative is to see a perpetuation of life as in Donald (Ducks) America. Please no.

Sometimes these threads just get elevated. Thank you for that!

[Bonker]

An example: His father told him that if he fights with someone, he should stab them in the eye and runaway.

Surely an upbringing like this either makes or breaks a child. Yes, some can cope with that psychological damage, "make it out" and live honest lives (or pretend to); however, some also lose their minds and become drug addicts to cope. I think the current state of our society would suggest that latter is more prevalent. That is our current situation whether some choose to realize it or not.   

 

Also, let's stop making it seem like this is only a South African issue ("Ag, ja only in SA..."). Inequality is becoming a problem globally. Even in the almighty U.S. (Baltimore, Chicago, St. Louis, Detroit etc)  

[Boerklong]

Mr X do you have a babbelas this morning?

[King_Crispy]

You certainly hit a nerve there mamil

 

Liked your comments...

 

I don't see this article as making excuses for criminals. But rather giving some insight into how their worlds work and how they ended up there. Like I said, scary picture, no easy solutions imo.

Easy solution.

1x9mm between the eyes

[Skubarra]

Easy solution.

1x9mm between the eyes

Exactly the type of easy solution to problems taught to him by his dad. Problem is he is applying it in real life and not just threatening it on internet forums.

[Patchelicious]

Circumstance is a contributing factor, it is not the sole factor.

 

Putting too much emphasis on it is just as wrong as dismissing it.

 

Our opinions on it will be biased based on our own upbringing.

 

Was Norton born into a situation where the odds were stacked against him? Yes

Was it his circumstance that pulled the trigger? No

[mazambaan]

Whew, the two sides are not getting closer. Some realities to me are that generally you get the government you deserve and those that want to "hug the muggers" seldom do; definitely not to the extent of setting the ultimate example by giving up their fancy bike, Camelbak and race entries (let alone internet connection). Also that a solution must always be left to "government" in some shape of form.

 

There are ways to enable (well try to) these communities with training facilities, self help for housing, labour intensive projects etc. My experience is that their success rate is very small; government corruption and incompetence (SAPS, Home Affairs, NHBRC and Dept of Labour) and community bloody mindedness (paid students at the training facility strike for higher wages, beat up the staff and burn the facility) usually kills them.

 

So Mamil et al; give us your concrete, well-thought out and resourced, financed, practical tried and true solution/s and your personal example (I would like guidance as to what works). We know what the problem is. In the meantime carrot and stick will remain as is.

['Dale]

I grew up in a ghetto type environment.had the same offers for tik and gangs. Many school friends dead. I chose to distance myself. Options are very limited in these places. People suffer for a lack of knowledge.was blessed to be one of the few that got out. There is no excuse.

Thanx for this, scotty'

????????

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Whew, the two sides are not getting closer. Some realities to me are that generally you get the government you deserve and those that want to "hug the muggers" seldom do; definitely not to the extent of setting the ultimate example by giving up their fancy bike, Camelbak and race entries (let alone internet connection). Also that a solution must always be left to "government" in some shape of form.

 

There are ways to enable (well try to) these communities with training facilities, self help for housing, labour intensive projects etc. My experience is that their success rate is very small; government corruption and incompetence (SAPS, Home Affairs, NHBRC and Dept of Labour) and community bloody mindedness (paid students at the training facility strike for higher wages, beat up the staff and burn the facility) usually kills them.

 

So Mamil et al; give us your concrete, well-thought out and resourced, financed, practical tried and true solution/s and your personal example (I would like guidance as to what works). We know what the problem is. In the meantime carrot and stick will remain as is.

I think you've nailed your own question there, Mazambaan. Get rid of that, and perform a complete rejig of the current educational system, and you're on your way to at least reversing the cancer. 

 

These people need to be removed from society, but so do the circumstances in which they grow up. 

[Moriarty]

What's also strikes me about the brilliant and nuanced arguments of people like Mr X in debates like this is that it seems even harder for them to shake the effects of their own environmental conditioning than it is for those in hangklip and similar places to avoid the traps of poverty, drugs and criminality. Those spaces produce fewer criminals than the privileged spaces produce criminal stupidity.

 

Let me guess .... D aggregate Christian National Education circa 1984?

My but it must be difficult for an intellectual like yourself to engage in such elevated debate with us plebs...............

 

Clearly you don't see the conditioning of your own environment.

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

What made your parents different?

If they can 'chose' to change the circumstances why not others?

I think it's a mindset issue, Mark. One that is perpetuated through continual layers of piss poor educational standards, joblessness and social issues. Seeing those loved ones close to you go down a certain path, and thinking "hang on, that's not right" or seeing the "haves" and wondering how you can elevate yourself to that position rather than take it by force. 

 

For a real life comparison - Eddie vs his workmates. Same situation, same upbringing, same environment. Totally different decision wrt his finances. The long term view vs living in the now (which isn't a bad thing, if you do it properly)

[Musketeer]

No matter how we try to peel this onion, the fact of the matter is that we live in a society where your life is worth approximately R5 depending on the criminal standing in front of you.

 

Personally, as fed up as I am, I feel completely powerless as not even the authorities are successful in curbing this occurrence. I mean yes we try and stay away from "problem" areas, but at the beginning of the year my girlfriend and her hiking group got attacked and one of the ladies got raped on what was described as a safe hike where... according to the authorities and the community.... this is the first time it has ever happened.

 

I am very sorry but I'm past the point where we justify these type of behaviors and write it off as "ag shame", he is a product of his society and "if you were in his position" type of justification.

 

This really hits home when something like this happens to your loved ones it is sad to say that we justify these bahviour patterns. Where will it end? Even one of the scum that attacked the Tokai teenager is now pleading for mercy as he is a victim of his circumstances.

 

A bit of rant, but my 5cents.

[Mamil]

Moriarty thank God for your empathy. It's like banging your head against a brick wall I tell you.

[SwissVan]

Then I am part of the problem somehow, well FU. You go share your **** with Norton if you feel sorry for him and leave me the fv*k alone

And to think some people think I like trolling for an argument

 

Thanks tjom, you have the stick now

 

Back on topic

IMO people like norton know what they are doing, they have to otherwise they will die sooner than later.... in all honesty they have made their choice and there should be no place for them on this planet. To many oxygen thieves (pun intended)...

 

Easy to say... hard to solve in these left wing greenieweenie conservative times

[Mamil]

 

I should not be surprised by the plethora of views of the "haves" that fail to take into account the reality we come from. Not too many on this forum have experienced what life choices one is confronted with in the ghettos, slums and gang infested badlands of our country.

 

 

 

This ^^^