Old Mutual Wealth Double Century 2022 on behalf of a slacking Pure Savage

[DieSwartGevaar]

3 minutes ago, DieSwartGevaar said:

Rate the only solution is to stagger the fastest 10-15 Open, 5-10 mixed and Ladies teams throughout the field, this way you ensure the teams racing for a top finish are not drafting each other (looking at the DC instagram, there was Argus size pelotons happening on the R62). It also reduces the size of the faster bunches flying past the slower riders. A time penalty is not a deterrent for a slower team, as the main goal is typically finishing as a group of 12.

Then implement what @Pure Savagesuggest, if slower teams are taking up the entire left hand lane, have the marshals focus on them to single our double file on the far left, at threat of losing that 12 rider finish/free beer/photo etc.

The dodgiest sections was between WP1 and WP2 where the cross-headwind was forcing teams across the entire road. There were instances where 1 peloton was passing another peloton with a car in both lanes. That's a disaster waiting to happen

[ChrisF]

2 hours ago, DieselnDust said:

....by the time teams are leaving Bonnievale the problem has largely disappeared. It the R62 to Robertson and the road to van Louveren winery /rooibruf were the main problem. Is. 

 

2019 we drove to Ashton and took some photos at the waterpoint.

 

Driving back towards Robertson I stopped three times to help stranded riders.  Thus we were very mindful of the cyclists and the dynamics at play.

 

After fixing the last puncture we set off to Robertson.  By now the faster team were catching up, and the dynamics was FAST changing.

 

 

The motorcycles would wave cars by, but the leading group was almost a 100m long and passing was dodgy at best .... knowing we were about 5km from Robertson I decided to just wait it out, following the peloton.

 

Next moment a group of 12 RACERS was drafting my car !!  Then litterally passing me left and right side and off they were into the oncoming lane passing the mega peleton.  A second racing group caught us just before Robertson, with no way to pass that lot before the circle, they waited (and lost precious racing time).

 

I was GLAD to get past that circle and out of that mess ....

 

PS - that was the year with the head on wind from Robertson towards Ashton, not sure if that assisted in growing that peloton to that size.

 

 

I wont propose any solution, as I know way too little about road racing, but this format and/or the non application of rules is very unsafe ......

['Dale]

3 hours ago, Jewbacca said:

Doesn't this just come back to a group mentality issue. 

The riders KNOW they shouldn't ride in bunches, but as it happens, there is little regard and very little individual accountability, so people behave differently.

Look at dinner parties or gatherings. Up to say, 5 or 6 people, the bill is paid correctly, tip is usually sorted, conversation followed.... Make it 10? Suddenly those same people behave differently as there is now a large enough group to get lost in.

I see it on our morning rides too. The usual 4 guys/girls, suddenly all bring friends and partners and they are running red lights, riding 2 abreast and taking up space they shouldn't.

People in large groups are infuriating. I avoid them. I just hate it when that switch visibly happens.

So how do they change it? Maybe a deviation of Iron Man rules. Team gets pulled over by a marshall for 10 minutes everytime they draft or merge in another teams space?

The stops get times? The teams get time penalties? More than 2 stops/penalties per team, team gets withdrawn?

There must be a simple system where accountability calls the decisions into question

'No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible.' - Voltaire

[NC_lurker]

It blows my mind that people think the solution lies with the marshalls. Are we all 10yr old children? It's simple, as someone pointed out earlier, it's meant to be a team time trial...self-police and adhere to TT boxes.

Don't draft other teams, don't create bunches...if a faster team passes you then drop back. Likewise if you pass another team don't then slow up. 

I haven't ridden DC for years, it totally lost it's appeal when it turned into a bunch ride.

Yes, I'm almost as old as DnD and sometimes just as grumpy..

Edited December 1, 2022 by NC_lurker
Grammar

[splat]

4 hours ago, DieSwartGevaar said:

The dodgiest sections was between WP1 and WP2 where the cross-headwind was forcing teams across the entire road. There were instances where 1 peloton was passing another peloton with a car in both lanes. That's a disaster waiting to happen

No one was 'forced' to do anything.

Group mentality chose those that option.
That, and the 'we're in a race, so normal rules and common sense don't apply' mentality.

[bleedToWin]

Lot's of good suggestions for how to practically accomplish things have been put on the table.

It all starts with the will of the organisers, and that seems lacking...
The spirit of DC should be TTT. If the organisers push "202km just you and your teammates" we will by 2 iterations (if not immediately) create an environment where drafting another team will be seen as shameful unless you got dropped by your own team (in which case you already carry some shame...) Even social teams will post about and brag about their sub-7 unassisted 12-man finish.

@Akonput it perfectly. We need the organiser's to campaign hard during the build-up:
"You won't take a shortcut so don't draft off other teams"

[Jewbacca]

18 hours ago, NC_lurker said:

It blows my mind that people think the solution lies with the marshalls. Are we all 10yr old children? It's simple, as someone pointed out earlier, it's meant to be a team time trial...self-police and adhere to TT boxes.

Don't draft other teams, don't create bunches...if a faster team passes you then drop back. Likewise if you pass another team don't then slow up. 

I haven't ridden DC for years, it totally lost it's appeal when it turned into a bunch ride.

Yes, I'm almost as old as DnD and sometimes just as grumpy..

If you think a bunch of people on bikes are able to self govern any sort of thing on the fly, I want some of what is in your pipe!

Cyclists are the worst.

They can't even self govern their behaviour on a daily group fun ride.

Unfortunately the organisers do need to intervene in order to set some sort of precedent. Once established and set, maybe, MAYBE, there will need to be less governance, but for now, the history of the event shows that it won't right itself

[NC_lurker]

36 minutes ago, Jewbacca said:

If you think a bunch of people on bikes are able to self govern any sort of thing on the fly, I want some of what is in your pipe!

Cyclists are the worst.

They can't even self govern their behaviour on a daily group fun ride.

Unfortunately the organisers do need to intervene in order to set some sort of precedent. Once established and set, maybe, MAYBE, there will need to be less governance, but for now, the history of the event shows that it won't right itself

In my defence at no stage did I say that I expected things to improve, I was just in my frustration pointing out how basic the solution could be in the land of dreams.

Nothing in my pipe unfortunately, with the total clusterfk of a store refitting happening at Checkers my time in Muizenberg has been limited lately.

[DieselnDust]

21 hours ago, NC_lurker said:

It blows my mind that people think the solution lies with the marshalls. Are we all 10yr old children? It's simple, as someone pointed out earlier, it's meant to be a team time trial...self-police and adhere to TT boxes.

Don't draft other teams, don't create bunches...if a faster team passes you then drop back. Likewise if you pass another team don't then slow up. 

I haven't ridden DC for years, it totally lost it's appeal when it turned into a bunch ride.

Yes, I'm almost as old as DnD and sometimes just as grumpy..

while I agree that self regulation is the most important part of positive change, people, especially cyclists tend to be rather self centred and will only change when it benefits the self.

So if the implication of deviation is a penalty that hits the ego, i.e. finish time bragging rights are dented, they won't change. Some will see the safety implications but these folks are in the minority.

Enforcement of rules is pretty important unfortunately but this also has to be supported by a penalty that hurts then and then.

[NC_lurker]

2 minutes ago, DieselnDust said:

while I agree that self regulation is the most important part of positive change, people, especially cyclists tend to be rather self centred and will only change when it benefits the self.

So if the implication of deviation is a penalty that hits the ego, i.e. finish time bragging rights are dented, they won't change. Some will see the safety implications but these folks are in the minority.

Enforcement of rules is pretty important unfortunately but this also has to be supported by a penalty that hurts then and then.

Mmm, I think this is a bit millennial.... don't take responsibility for your own actions, rather wait for someone else to. As South Africans we're great at pointing the finger at a lack of policing.... while selectively breaking whatever rules we determine to be "not really needed"...

Anyways, at least reading about bunch chaos at DC keeps any potential FOMO at bay. 

[splat]

Changing the subject slightly - Does anybody know what sort of prize money there was for the teams ?
(Not that I am in contention for any of it. Was just wondering)

And then, is there ever a GC for team categories and full teams ?
Racetec only shows overall position.

[DieselnDust]

3 minutes ago, NC_lurker said:

Mmm, I think this is a bit millennial.... don't take responsibility for your own actions, rather wait for someone else to. As South Africans we're great at pointing the finger at a lack of policing.... while selectively breaking whatever rules we determine to be "not really needed"...

Anyways, at least reading about bunch chaos at DC keeps any potential FOMO at bay. 

I think you have misunderstood.

There no kicking the can down the road, just a reality that people don't change until you give them an incentive too. 

7 minutes ago, splat said:

Changing the subject slightly - Does anybody know what sort of prize money there was for the teams ?
(Not that I am in contention for any of it. Was just wondering)

And then, is there ever a GC for team categories and full teams ?
Racetec only shows overall position.

search for the event and click search

Then in the menu search "Age", select Female, mixed, Open or Tandem

[NC_lurker]

31 minutes ago, DieselnDust said:

I think you have misunderstood.

There no kicking the can down the road, just a reality that people don't change until you give them an incentive too. 

Sorry, but I don't think this is a misunderstanding. 

You're suggesting that people need to be incentivized to follow the rules, I'm saying that people need to just follow the rules... simple. We don't get to choose to follow only those rules that suit us.

In that case why bother to pay the entry fee, just arrive on the start line at a time of your choosing and go wild...after all, it's only the rules that suggest you need to pay to participate.

 

[Skubarra]

45 minutes ago, splat said:

Changing the subject slightly - Does anybody know what sort of prize money there was for the teams ?
(Not that I am in contention for any of it. Was just wondering)

And then, is there ever a GC for team categories and full teams ?
Racetec only shows overall position.

As I recall the prize money was something like R10K per team.

(Which is why I find it cute how ideas are being thrown about how to throw more rules & motivations at the social riders to make the race nicer for the racing snakes because peeps here imagine this is a priority for the organisers)

[Jewbacca]

46 minutes ago, Skubarra said:

As I recall the prize money was something like R10K per team.

(Which is why I find it cute how ideas are being thrown about how to throw more rules & motivations at the social riders to make the race nicer for the racing snakes because peeps here imagine this is a priority for the organisers)

hahahaha

I think it's fanciful thinking more than anyone actually expecting anything to change.

It comes back to rider safety, so they will likely just leave it until the locals either get gatvol of the annual event and it's interruptions and make a formal objection or someone gets hit by an on coming car.

 

[DieselnDust]

1 hour ago, Skubarra said:

As I recall the prize money was something like R10K per team.

(Which is why I find it cute how ideas are being thrown about how to throw more rules & motivations at the social riders to make the race nicer for the racing snakes because peeps here imagine this is a priority for the organisers)

It’s not safe for the social riders and this has been proven over and over again. Almost every accident I’ve witnessed in the DC is due to social teams being passed and nearly everytime it’s a social rider that ends up in hospital. That’s the user group with the biggest impact and where the change has to come from. 
racing team are racing for prize money and sponsors. Asking the race teams to not race well… I’m not sure what to say about that really. Why bother with timing etc. 

I hear the same argument when ctct is done and dusted. “ oh hi for it 1009th spot is yours “. 
might be first in 1D or first in age group either of which are achievements in their own right. Why enter a race if you’re just after the jol? If it’s the jol then why not stay in the beer tent where it’s safer to socialise? 
instead were arguing about accepting the social teams as dangerous chicanes and to life with it and do nothing. 
it appears we’re all very confused about what we want. 
what I do see is “social “ teams racing each other but latching onto faster race teams to get a free ride and causing a danger to themselves and the faster team(s).

not ideal at all.