Save Deer Park Forest: Stop Sugarbird Projects now!

[Shebeen]

53 minutes ago, Headshot said:

I'm afraid OP, you're not going to win this one.

I know how you feel as a Tokai regular since the 1990's, the loss of those trees will change the feel of the place completely. but, TMNP is an environmental conservation area and as a result all aliens and especially invasive plants will be removed eventually. 

Personally, I'm glad the aliens are getting removed as I love the Fynbos and indigenous forest that is found on TM. Its a pity that at Upper Tokai, aliens still rule the roost and TMNP seems to have lost the plot on how to deal with the problem.

Pines all mainly burnt down, MTO exited earlier than planned.

Fynbos can grow back now - YAY!

Instead wattle jumped into the space mainly - BOO!

 

how will this be any different?

 

 

 

While I am on the conservation side, deer park is quite a useful, protected and shady green area in a crowded city. Clear it all out will end up with a windswept wasteland - and people won't use it to nearly the same extent.

 

[DemitriN]

4 minutes ago, Stoffel76 said:

"Blasphemy!" 😮 This sort of comment will get you burnt at the stake (on a big pile of felled alien vegetation, of course) in the Cape... Best you keep that one to yourself...

Haha, bring it on! Trees are a taller order than bushes! 🙂   

[DemitriN]

4 minutes ago, Shebeen said:

Pines all mainly burnt down, MTO exited earlier than planned.

Fynbos can grow back now - YAY!

Instead wattle jumped into the space mainly - BOO!

 

how will this be any different?

 

 

 

While I am on the conservation side, deer park is quite a useful, protected and shady green area in a crowded city. Clear it all out will end up with a windswept wasteland - and people won't use it to nearly the same extent.

 

Yes! Agreed 100%

As the old saying goes: "The one thing we learn from history is that people don't learn from history!" Remove Table Mountain's trees, and the pre-1800's windswept wasteland returns - along with annual dust storms and mud slides. And people will be cursing.  

[DemitriN]

1 hour ago, Headshot said:

I'm afraid OP, you're not going to win this one.

I know how you feel as a Tokai regular since the 1990's, the loss of those trees will change the feel of the place completely. but, TMNP is an environmental conservation area and as a result all aliens and especially invasive plants will be removed eventually. 

Personally, I'm glad the aliens are getting removed as I love the Fynbos and indigenous forest that is found on TM. Its a pity that at Upper Tokai, aliens still rule the roost and TMNP seems to have lost the plot on how to deal with the problem.

Thanks for your thoughts!

[Pandatron]

Can we vote for taring or paving it instead?

[DemitriN]

54 minutes ago, Pandatron said:

Can we vote for taring or paving it instead?

Road biker? 🙂 

[Robbie Stewart]

Nothing grows under a pine tree. They are better as furniture anyway. And Eucalyptus trees are too Aussie and are better as braai wood. So, what better way to celebrate nature than to have a braai with eucalyptus wood with the dishes all served on the pine table and chairs. 

And Fynbos smells better.

[Martin Albrecht]

There are lots (and there should have been more) of lovely natural forests in TMNP. I realise this deer park “deforestation” will be an inconvenience for some people, but once the fynbos have been re-established, it will all be forgotten, and in the long term, this is the best best course of action.

if you want forests, then go to the real forests, that have more than one species of plant growing in them, or to the actively managed MTO plantations all over the country if you like pine trees. 

[DemitriN]

Please help save Deer Park forest from extinction and preserve the wildlife that has called it home for the past hundred years 🙏🏽🌲🌲🌲

https://c.org/YttswwB8zK

[Shebeen]

was going to post this earlier, but got busy.

pic from Cape Historical FB group.

date unknown, but guessing early 20th century.

That is a lot of forest up there!!

 

I can sympathise with the vibes that the Parkscape people are doing at Tokai(and beyond), I'm ok with pockets of alien remaining if they serve a purpose and are well managed (and the restored fynbos stuff is actually managed too). but I can't really personally support them because they come across as the creepiest of weirdos that scare the bejeesus out of me.

[tinmug]

Quote

1. Argument: "Exotic plants/trees have no place in our land and should be removed." Response: Most civilised nations on earth have a mixture of indigenous and exotic plants.

Rare in National Park spaces. Besides, we are not a civilised nation and kinda proud of it too. 😆

Quote

2. Argument: "Eucalyptus trees are detrimental to the environment as they suck up huge amounts of water." Response: You will find Eucalyptus varieties all over the world - there have been very good reasons for importing them. New academic research is challenging the presupposition that they suck up huge amounts of water. All large trees suck up water!

... and large, dense plantations of Australian trees never existed naturally on Table Mountain. What do your metrics say of Ozzy trees vs endemic tree species? Reference to that research please.

Quote

3. Argument: "Pines and Eucalyptus trees do not belong in Cape Town. They should be removed to make way for indigenous species." Response: Let me state, our Cape Town foresters in previous centuries were way more knowledgeable than we give them credit for (e.g. Frank Jarman - see his memorial at the King's Blockhouse). They realised that very few tree species would be able to thrive on the slopes of Table Mountain. The area is swept by gale force winds and the soil is of such an inferior quality that many plants would not be able to be established there. Pines and Eucalyptus are two very hardy varieties that have shown success. Positively they act as wind barriers, while their roots aid in preventing soil erosion and mud slides. 

... and that statement was in support of commercial logging, the keyword you tumbled onto is 'foresters'.

Quote

4. Argument: "Fynbos is the original plant inhabitant of Cape Town and should be restored." Response: There are many, many areas in Cape Town where fynbos can be propagated. Why should all the Capetonians who love and enjoy Deer Park Forest have it forcibly removed from them without any real consultation? To be sure, not everyone loves fynbos. I have read quotes from visitors to Cape Town in the 1700's and 1800's who described the vegetation on the slopes of Table Mountain as a barren, rocky, dull, and unexciting wilderness.

Remind where those visitors in the 1700s and 1800s were from (literally anywhere in Europe = trees and very, very green grasses), remind us how they understood the uniqueness and diversity of fynbos? Provide a reference to those quotes please.

And your Argument #4 really sums in up: there were no (or few, and then only in small pockets) trees back then. So why now, just for the squirrels and odd hiker/biker and to the detriment of the thousands of other species that would otherwise thrive in fynbos and its suitable soil conditions?

[Gr3mlin131]

10 hours ago, DemitriN said:

Please help save Deer Park forest from extinction and preserve the wildlife that has called it home for the past hundred years 🙏🏽🌲🌲🌲

https://c.org/YttswwB8zK

Not  sure what you are trying to prove with this picture. This is from a different place Company`s Garden (https://www.roselinde.me/companys-garden/), has nothing to do with Deer Park. Also it is showing a grey squirrel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_gray_squirrel), which is not native outside of North America, so is displacing the actual native fauna. I will be happy if they cull the generic pines and eucalyptus trees and get the area back to the unique Fynbos that is only in South Africa. 

[DJR]

17 hours ago, DemitriN said:

Yes! Agreed 100%

As the old saying goes: "The one thing we learn from history is that people don't learn from history!" Remove Table Mountain's trees, and the pre-1800's windswept wasteland returns - along with annual dust storms and mud slides. And people will be cursing.  

NOPE!

I urge you to go and look for yourself, in real life, not just online, at what happens when especially pines are removed from the slopes of Table Mountain. As a quick start, go to (1) Silvermine and (2) Rhodes Memorial. Both were cleared relatively recently and are practical examples of regeneration.

1. At Silvermine (West) the whole area for kilometres around the dam was covered in monoculture pine plantations up to around 20 (?) years ago. They were removed and the way the fynbos grew back from a 100 year old seed bank was simply incredible. No barren dust bowl! If you want to treat yourself to biodiversity, go when the pincushions and proteas are flowering, or the ericas, gladioli, geraniums, disas ....... the list is endless.

2. Between the entrance gate to Rhodes Memorial and the Newlands Picnic area, the pines were removed around 30 years ago and indigenous yellowwood trees planted in their place. Yes, they mistakenly planted the Knysna Yellowwood, and they are slow growing trees, but they are now 3 storeys high, beautiful shade trees, and they are still little trees. A lovely piece of mtb single track runs through there. No windswept sunburn desert!

 

[U1Nanimous]

Hi OP, 

Yes, we all like forests in one way, shape or some variation thereof. 

I recall riding in Lebanon (Grabouw), and one day BOOM, all gone, or at least a section of it, and it was like riding in an Alien place, a barren landscape more akin to the surface of the moon than the lush shade-filled pine forest it was. 

But the reality is that we live in a water-scarce country. There is no getting around that. 

Artificially creating forest areas, which do not naturally occur, creates issues in the greater balance of our local biospheres. 

There is considerable evidence to suggest that natural water systems can re-emerge when alien species are removed.

OP, you can look into the Overstrand, Working on Water projects, and the removal of alien species, and how they contributed to the restoration of once-lost ecosystems, rivers, and the impact in both natural and urban environments.

Again, from an aesthetic point of view, yes, we do miss these forest trees and parks or plantations, but the argument to keep them is or should be outweighed not only by the natural benefit of removing them, but also by the long-term impact alien species might have. 

Far more interesting than any Pine, eucalyptus forest I have ever seen, or had the pleasure of riding my MTB in, is our natural forests. 

Maybe a more constructive initiative would be to replace these invasive forests with natural indigenous species. Think of our Cape Milkwood forests, Indigenuos forests in the Garden Route, etc. 

Yes, it will not be enjoyed fully by us in this lifetime, but it will hopefully be enjoyed by generations to come. 

I'm reminded of farmers who planted windbreaks, the impact of which would not have been for their use, but for the following generations, which can be seen around the world to this day. 

 

https://botanicalsociety.org.za/forests-of-south-africa/

https://grootbosfoundation.org/2022/11/07/the-importance-of-trees-milkwood-forest-edition/

https://www.capenature.co.za/news/2023/indigenous-forests-of-the-western-cape

*Milkwood forest

* Knysna Indigenuos forest

 

[Sepia]

52 minutes ago, Gr3mlin131 said:

 

I am also very, very, extremely confused by this picture.

If I am not mistaken and I do not think I am, this is a Grey Squirrel which is NOT endemic to South Africa and is causing a huge problem for the Red Squirrel in Europe.  Please may be not have that here!

The pics of the indigenous forests astound me and make me even more of a believer in Indigenous forests.  Beautiful.

Thanks to U1Nanimouse for posting.  We van now compare apples with pears.

Edited January 16 by Sepia

[Shebeen]

2 hours ago, tinmug said:

Rare in National Park spaces. Besides, we are not a civilised nation and kinda proud of it too. 😆

...

I'm in the Ja, but camp here - because TMNP has only been a national park for 25yrs now - it is nothing like other national parks as an island in a city. it's not fenced off and we can't pretend that we can return it to natural state (which includes Lions).

but looks like the local neighbourhood watch is behind this effort

https://dpvwatch.co.za/get-involved-in-saving-our-indigenous-flora-invasives-hacks/

 

1 hour ago, DJR said:

NOPE!

I urge you to go and look for yourself, in real life, not just online, at what happens when especially pines are removed from the slopes of Table Mountain. As a quick start, go to (1) Silvermine  cleared relatively recently and are practical examples of regeneration.

1. At Silvermine (West) the whole area for kilometres around the dam was covered in monoculture pine plantations up to around 20 (?) years ago. They were removed and the way the fynbos grew back from a 100 year old seed bank was simply incredible. No barren dust bowl! If you want to treat yourself to biodiversity, go when the pincushions and proteas are flowering, or the ericas, gladioli, geraniums, disas ....... the list is endless.

 

probably not the best example currently - recovering from this from last April - let's hope it does better than Tokai next door!! 

Edited January 16 by Shebeen