Cape Town danger areas

[Bonus]

It does seem unfair that it's ok for you to be the victim of violent crime, but not for you to use violence to stop violent crime from happening to you.

 

Add to that the fact that you pay the wages of the police force via tax, but when you need them to do their jobs they don't even answer the phone - let alone turn up, but should you take the law into your own hands, that same police force will come down on you like a ton of bricks.  

 

I understand the idea of us all not dropping to "wild animal" status, so what is the answer?

 

Is it a basic right for anyone to be able to walk (or ride) down the road without being molested by criminals or is that an unrealistic luxury in SA in this day and age?

[MORNE]

snip

 

No wait!! (since this thread has devolved into something other than Cape Town danger areas), the solution lies in education and employment. And that's a far-reaching topic, I'm sure we'll all agree. How awesome would it be for one of those skebangas being employed as a security guy on the cycle lane and being paid to do so. Pie-in-the-sky maybe, but can't we aim at that?

 

<rant off>

 

don't under estimate the 'african'nes' in you or any of us.....i think some bank coined a word for it...

we think and are different than any other nation on earth imo....also why we excellin the first world working environments.

we are inherently compettative and i'll go so far as to say - even corrupt. Corruption is not just what we read politicians do in the papers....

 

Within this african'nes lies what is wholly wrong with this continent imo. We/us/they get or get given opportunities...only to realise that it is possible to excel even more by exploiting said opportunities (we have to unfortunately). You can't unlearn it.

 

There was an example I recently read about somewhere. Some NGO or WWE initiative (cant remember) - in an attempt to positively impact deforestation - started PAYING locals to stop chopping down trees and instead plant new trees.

Well, what started happening is....they realised that they could get paid by still chopping down trees as well as planting them...

Good business model by any one's standard. Moral or immoral? does anyone really care? we are all just trying to survive right?  

 

My point is...you will uplift those skollies and they will still steal those bikes and sell them to who ever buys them. They will just have more control over the process now lol.

[Wannabe]

My feeling is that when you remove a skollie from the equation, he will not be able to hurt the next person. Why should I / we treat him with kid gloves and have respect for his human rights, when he does not have respect for mine? 

[Blackheart]

Absolutely agree with having a right to safety, and the right to defend oneself (those who know me will know..), and we should have adequate policing for all.

But there is a dangerous and slippery slope when we start grouping, naming and deciding the punishment for those worthy of our retribution.

Martin Niemoller's quote is a reminder. 

[Mamil]

@Wannabe --- because then you become him.

 

My feeling is that when you remove a skollie from the equation, he will not be able to hurt the next person. Why should I / we treat him with kid gloves and have respect for his human rights, when he does not have respect for mine? 

 

@Bonus - I think it is a basic human right to be in the public space safely. We simply are not. I do think part of the answer is that we all keep riding our bikes and claiming the public spaces. 

 

 

It does seem unfair that it's ok for you to be the victim of violent crime, but not for you to use violence to stop violent crime from happening to you.

 

Add to that the fact that you pay the wages of the police force via tax, but when you need them to do their jobs they don't even answer the phone - let alone turn up, but should you take the law into your own hands, that same police force will come down on you like a ton of bricks.  

 

I understand the idea of us all not dropping to "wild animal" status, so what is the answer?

 

Is it a basic right for anyone to be able to walk (or ride) down the road without being molested by criminals or is that an unrealistic luxury in SA in this day and age?

[Wannabe]

Mamil, I do not quite agree with you. I do not go around attacking and robbing people in a violent manner willy nilly.

 

You attack me, and I have it in me to ward of your attack, be assured you are going to regret your actions, period. You violate my rights, you betcha I'm gonna violate yours. 

And this is not just keyboard warrior talk, trust me when I say this.  

Edited October 23, 2019 by Wannabe

[Mamil]

For sure. We are in agreement on that.  - but there's a difference between defending oneself from violence and advocating violence as a solution to crime.

 

 

Mamil, I do not quite agree with you. I do not go around attacking and robbing people in a violent manner.

 

You attack me, and I have it in me to ward of your attack, be assured you are going to regret your actions, period. You violate my rights, you betcha I'm gonna violate yours. 

And this is not just keyboard warrior talk, trust me when I say this.  

[Wannabe]

For sure. We are in agreement on that.  - but there's a difference between defending oneself from violence and advocating violence as a solution to crime.

 

 

Again, I do not agree with you. But let's leave it at that.

[Mamil]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammurabi

[Chingy182]

@Wannabe --- because then you become him.

 

 

@Bonus - I think it is a basic human right to be in the public space safely. We simply are not. I do think part of the answer is that we all keep riding our bikes and claiming from the INSURANCE. 

*fixed it for you

[Mamil]

ha ha ... Ja, always have insurance.

 

*fixed it for you

[DJR]

There are too many examples in SA  of  people who considered themselves "good" and decided to take the law into their own hands, just to beat up a few undesirables in a dark alley.......and ended up killing a completely innocent homeless person who was no more than a nuisance and certainly not a threat. End result? "Good" guy arrested, tried and convicted for murder and sent to jail, family ruined, life ruined. Damage done that can never be repaired. Taking the law into your own hands, becoming policeman, prosecutor, judge and hangman all in one, will only lead to tragedy, for everyone.

 

Defending yourself to the fullest, including with violence and lethal force where appropriate, that is something very different. 

Edited October 23, 2019 by DJR

[Blackheart]

For those not familiar:

The Quotation

Niemöller is perhaps best remembered for the quotation1 :

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

[MORNE]

Absolutely agree with having a right to safety, and the right to defend oneself (those who know me will know..), and we should have adequate policing for all.

But there is a dangerous and slippery slope when we start grouping, naming and deciding the punishment for those worthy of our retribution.

Martin Niemoller's quote is a reminder. 

 

 

 

For those not familiar:

The Quotation

Niemöller is perhaps best remembered for the quotation1 :

 

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

 

not really sure what you are getting at with this....Niemoller's poem deals with how the ignorance/silence of genpop germany in regards to Nazi germany's persecutions meant they all had their 'day in court' in the end so to speak, whether it was through feelings of guilt or subsequent treatment/persecution by the west for warcrimes because you were a nazi sympathiser by default.

If anything..it can be interpreted in this scenario that if we keep on keeping quiet about what is going on around us in terms of violence against cyclists....we will become victims ourselves in the end...

 

anyway, proof that the nazis are to blame for everything   

Edited October 23, 2019 by morneS555

[Blackheart]

not really sure what you are getting at with this....Niemoller's poem deals with how the ignorance/silence of genpop germany in regards to Nazi germany's persecutions meant they all had their 'day in court' in the end so to speak, whether it was through feelings of guilt or subsequent treatment/persecution by the west for warcrimes because you were a nazi sympathiser by default.

If anything..it can be interpreted in this scenario that if we keep on keeping quiet about what is going on around us in terms of violence against cyclists....we will become victims ourselves in the end...

 

anyway, proof that the nazis are to blame for everything   

The essence of this is that while you have every right to safety and every right to defend yourself, and your loved ones (and I have been there, and delivered appropriate and awful violence), as soon as you begin advocating roaming neighbourhoods with like minded people, with the intention of delivering violence on a group you purely don't like the look of, then you begin to resemble something history has shown time and again to be wrong.

 

As for the quote, how you interpret it as an individual is up to you.

[Bonus]

I didn't get the impression anyone was suggesting roaming the streets looking for people you don't like the look of . . .