If you could have one mountain bike, would it be a trail or XC bike?

[Skott5]

5 hours ago, El Duderino said:

I'm no expert in these matters and I stand corrected, but the issue is probably geometry. If you were on an old Scott Spark, the head angle is probably about 69/70 degrees with a 70 to 100 mm stem. This puts your weight quite forward, meaning there is more weight on the front tyre, making cornering and handling more precise and less vague feeling. Weight on the front tyre increases grip which means more grip when cornering. A Pyga Hyrax probably has 66 or 65 degree head angle, and a short 30 or 40 mm stem. This moves your weight back quite significantly, reducing weight on the front tyre, giving that vague handling feeling and reduced grip when cornering. The Hyrax geometry is great for steep/technical descents, and requires an adjustment on tight, flat, non technical singletrack. You need to consciously start weighting that front tyre in flat corners, or you will keep washing out, even if you have that tractor tyre, the Assagay, up front.

The seat tube is steeper on the Hyrax and it's a pretty well balanced bike. If anything it's actually front wheel biased as far as weight distribution is concerned.

I think Fred has other factors at play, maybe even locking up the front brakes into corners.

[Trashy]

17 hours ago, Fred van Vlaanderen said:

Thanks! Informative video. Have to admit that caution might be helpful in my case as over-confidence has gotten me in trouble in the past, but I understand what you mean in terms of committing! 
 

Appreciate the feedback. 

Perhaps to clarify, my definition of being cautious is upright position, weight further back on the bike.

Over confidence means riding beyond the capability of the bike (generally unlikely) or your own skill set.

Committed is the middle ground. Not necessarily pushing the limits but being intentional about body position, not backing off the moment your front feels like it's going to slip out.

Having recently installed a 1.5 angle headset, which took me from 67° to about 65.7°, I have noticed that I need to push the front harder than before to get traction.

Another thing to consider is that your trail bike is possibly carrying more speed into corners than your old bike, so you have to brake harder before the corner to avoid washing out.

[Trashy]

7 minutes ago, Skott5 said:

The seat tube is steeper on the Hyrax and it's a pretty well balanced bike. If anything it's actually front wheel biased as far as weight distribution is concerned.

I think Fred has other factors at play, maybe even locking up the front brakes into corners.

Seat angle has absolutely no effect on weight distribution unless you are seated.

If you're going into corners fast while seated than the bike is the least of your concerns.

[Super Sywurm]

I ride a Rapide Tigre, which I classify as a trail bike.  I built it with a 100mm fork and 2.4" tyres and I ride just as far and just as fast as the XC bikes.  The only thing holdinge me back is my personal fitness.

I still want to see what the Rapid can do with a 120mm fork on XC rides.

I also have an extra wheelset with slicks for fast road rides. 

[Dexter-morgan]

I have recently changed from a Scott Genius to a Trek Top Fuel, the ride is quite different, need to get used to the Trek, burning to take it on a proper to get used to the new handling.

[Super Sywurm]

6 minutes ago, Super Sywurm said:

I ride a Rapide Tigre, which I classify as a trail bike.  I built it with a 100mm fork and 2.4" tyres and I ride just as far and just as fast as the XC bikes.  The only thing holdinge me back is my personal fitness.

I still want to see what the Rapid can do with a 120mm fork on XC rides.

I also have an extra wheelset with slicks for fast road rides. 

I also had a Silverback Stratos with 120mm travel.  I think the Stratos is more a trail bike than a XC bike.  I did a 100km road race with it and averaged around 30km/h.

So, in my opinion, most trail bikes is just as good or better than XC bikes on XC rides.  I enjoy the trail bike more.

[Baracuda]

I had a similar issue when moving to a trail bike.

Two things that helped are position on the bike and tires.

Position on the bike, there are lots of clips on Youtube on keeping weight forward, not dipping your heals, bike body separation and how to corner on flat ground. These two channels where guys are teaching girls seem to have a good explanation :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8tcLMGDtBY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spbl1WvzlMY&t=58s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h26NLjmyEDc&list=RDCMUC22qoor44d486QHNC13N5_w&start_radio=1&rv=h26NLjmyEDc&t=429

Then with regard to front tires, are you perhaps using a Minion DHF? Fantastic tires but there is a gap between the centre tread and the side knobs. Sometimes it slides. One has to aggressively switch from the centre to the side knobs using the bike body separation above.

(this guy also knows how to ride corners: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6xQDi4xCuM&list=RDCMUCVRjRInx82lpLOe4hk4fa5A&index=2)

 

Edited April 25, 2022 by Baracuda

[porqui]

Been a useful discussion - informative.

Le Hub of old 🙃

[Fred van Vlaanderen]

23 minutes ago, Baracuda said:

I had a similar issue when moving to a trail bike.

Two things that helped are position on the bike and tires.

Position on the bike, there are lots of clips on Youtube on keeping weight forward, not dipping your heals, bike body separation and how to corner on flat ground. These two channels where guys are teaching girls seem to have a good explanation :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8tcLMGDtBY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spbl1WvzlMY&t=58s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h26NLjmyEDc&list=RDCMUC22qoor44d486QHNC13N5_w&start_radio=1&rv=h26NLjmyEDc&t=429

Then with regard to front tires, are you perhaps using a Minion DHF? Fantastic tires but there is a gap between the centre tread and the side knobs. Sometimes it slides. One has to aggressively switch from the centre to the side knobs using the bike body separation above.

(this guy also knows how to ride corners: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6xQDi4xCuM&list=RDCMUCVRjRInx82lpLOe4hk4fa5A&index=2)

 

Thanks!! Very helpful. 
 

Using Specialized Butcher and Eliminator combo. 

[Fred van Vlaanderen]

13 minutes ago, porqui said:

Been a useful discussion - informative.

Le Hub of old 🙃

Completely agree. Feel so much better after just reading all of this. 
 

Thanks to everyone!! 

[Baracuda]

4 minutes ago, Fred van Vlaanderen said:

Thanks!! Very helpful. 
 

Using Specialized Butcher and Eliminator combo. 

They seem to have good distribution of knobs. Try that bike / body separation thing in the clips above. Pygas are the puppy's nuts and love to be ridden hard.

Edited April 25, 2022 by Baracuda

[thebob]

@Fred van Vlaanderenare you running the Hyrax flip chip in the high or low position? The high position might help get a bit more weight over the front wheel.

[LazyTrailRider]

12 hours ago, Jewbacca said:

hahaha But then you ride a massive bike!

IMHO a 'trail' bike is still max 140mm front and rear with about that 66-67.5 HA geo.

A trail bike is supposed to be equally as adept at punching up hills as it is descending them.

I'm not talking winching up chatting, I'm talking riding up fast.

These days, if all was equal, I'd want a 130mm/120mm down country bike. With about a 66.5' HA

I'm not launching off the 20m gaps or 3m high drops on Iron Monkey etc or chasing STRAVA KOMS, so something that does everything well without being close to either end of the parabolic performance graph.

I mean, up until last year I still had faster times down some of the Tokai trails than you did on my 'XC' bike! hahahahaha (I recall we discussed this in the 'goals for 2022' thread)

It is crazy though how the industry finally pushed the boat on on big geo numbers and found it was in fact better than road bikes with some boingboing!

Touché on being faster, haha!

Of course it’s possible to shred on any bike, but slowpokes like me need all the help we can get…

I hear what you’re saying about the purpose of a trail bike. Mine is obviously way more capable than I need (160/150 f/r with a 63.5 HA and 77 SA and 2.6” soft-compound rubber), but that’s simply because at my advanced age I like to ride up to max 80% of my capabilities and not be shaken up too much on the way down. Could the EVO better a better climber? For sure, but to be honest the kinematics have improved so much from my previous 2019 Stumpy that it actually climbs better even though it has 10mm more travel and is 3deg slacker. That’s tech development for you.

Besides, if I need to get to the top of the hill fast, I take the lazy way out and use the Levo. My nick isn’t what it is for nothing 😉

Edited April 25, 2022 by LazyTrailRider
Spelling

[Fred van Vlaanderen]

1 hour ago, thebob said:

@Fred van Vlaanderenare you running the Hyrax flip chip in the high or low position? The high position might help get a bit more weight over the front wheel.

Yes, running on high.

[Steady Spin]

2 hours ago, Fred van Vlaanderen said:

Thanks!! Very helpful. 
 

Using Specialized Butcher and Eliminator combo. 

Similar combo but running Butchers front and back. T7 compound. 

I washed out the front quite badly in a berm recently and it was from entering too hard and the force pushing my weight back. 

Slacker head angles require you to bend those elbows and knees, get that chin over the top cap and show that steed who’s boss. 

I found at 66 degrees that the more aggressive I ride, the smoother it gets. 
 

Become one with the steed. 

[Robbie Stewart]

4 hours ago, Fred van Vlaanderen said:

Using Specialized Butcher and Eliminator combo.

This is what I ride on Rapidé TR29-36 SL wheelsets which I replaced my Spez Roval Traverse wheels with. I also shortened the stem to 50mm and increased bar length to 780mm. My bike, Spez Camber Comp has 120mm front and rear and I have no issues with getting it to stick to whatever I ride. I have slowly learnt the art of trusting my tyres and now they dig in on the side knobblies when I come blasting down a DH line into any berm, switchback or turn.

I don't find that my front wheel washes out like it did when I was riding with a longer 100mm stem which the bike came with originally. It was like I got a new bike after those changes.