12 Speed: Mixing SRAM and Shimano Components

[Murrob]

3 hours ago, lechatnoir said:

thanks. that's really good news . a bit of googling would have answered my question, but hubber feedback is most helpful.

I built up a new bike recently and went the Shramano route, shimano chain and cassette (important for the hyper glide to work of course) with SRAM AXS - works like a bomb. Little bit of tweaking to get the shifting sorted (YouTube will help here) but super happy so far with the results. I agree with the comments above that shifting with AXS feels super counterintuitive out the box, so have been fiddling. The solution I’ve found for me is the upgrade paddle for the shifter (600 odd bucks) and then reversing the shifting from default, feels super now, but there will be much fiddling to get the desired spot, as keep in mind it it of course more sensitive to being trigger accidentally. But was thinking to myself last light how far we come as I quickly put my rear derailleur battery on charge…

P.S - only thing I have noticed which resulted in a fair amount of troubleshooting is that when back peddling on the Shramano setup, particularly on a drying chain, is that it’s noisy to the point where you think you might have a faulty bearing somewhere. So after a fair amount of looking I came to the conclusion it’s the narrow wide derailleur pulley wheels on the SRAM, much quieter though if chain is well lubed. 

Edited November 12, 2021 by Murrob

[Jbr]

Trying to mix stuff but not having much luck so far.

Okay so my Force eTap rear derailleur fried, I ordered a new one but it's taking too long to get here. So I read a little bit online about how you can theoretically mix sram AXS components together https://blog.3t.bike/2019/09/12028/gravel-tech-hacking-sram-axs-drivetrains/. My goal is to take my GX derailleur and put it on my road bike until I get my new force derailleur.

I tried the whole pairing procedure before taking the GX off of my MTB and it works great. But it appears that that the screw that bolts the derailleur in the hanger is bigger on the GX/MTB than on the force/road bike ? Visually I can't really tell but couldn't screw in the GX in the road bike, I didn't insist too much. But the weird thing is that the force derailleur bolts in the MTB beautifully so I don't really understand. Anyone knows of different hanger diameters for road and MTB ?

I'll try to clean off the dry loctite tomorrow maybe I'll have more luck...

 

edit : okay I must be drunk, the old xtr derailleur I replaced the gx with fits nicely on the road bike (incredibly light by the way) so I’ll try again tomorrow with the GX, curious to see how it works. It’s going to look dumb and be stupid heavy but hey 😂

Edited December 6, 2021 by Jbr

[DieselnDust]

3 hours ago, Jbr said:

Trying to mix stuff but not having much luck so far.

Okay so my Force eTap rear derailleur fried, I ordered a new one but it's taking too long to get here. So I read a little bit online about how you can theoretically mix sram AXS components together https://blog.3t.bike/2019/09/12028/gravel-tech-hacking-sram-axs-drivetrains/. My goal is to take my GX derailleur and put it on my road bike until I get my new force derailleur.

I tried the whole pairing procedure before taking the GX off of my MTB and it works great. But it appears that that the screw that bolts the derailleur in the hanger is bigger on the GX/MTB than on the force/road bike ? Visually I can't really tell but couldn't screw in the GX in the road bike, I didn't insist too much. But the weird thing is that the force derailleur bolts in the MTB beautifully so I don't really understand. Anyone knows of different hanger diameters for road and MTB ?

I'll try to clean off the dry loctite tomorrow maybe I'll have more luck...

 

edit : okay I must be drunk, the old xtr derailleur I replaced the gx with fits nicely on the road bike (incredibly light by the way) so I’ll try again tomorrow with the GX, curious to see how it works. It’s going to look dumb and be stupid heavy but hey 😂

It should bolt right on. Only challenge might be the lower NW pulley wheel may give some issues when shifting between chain rings especially in the little ring  it may skip once in a while. Easily solved with a non NW pulley wheel

[Jbr]

8 hours ago, DieselnDust said:

It should bolt right on. Only challenge might be the lower NW pulley wheel may give some issues when shifting between chain rings especially in the little ring  it may skip once in a while. Easily solved with a non NW pulley wheel

yeah it did, it's really not great though on a 10-28T cassette. Like they say on that gravelers website they do it so they can use bigger cassettes than 33T. So at the moment I've got 14 gears I can't use. If I set the B limit screw so that I can use the small blade, then the derailleur is way too far from the cassette on the big blade. If I set it so that I can only use the big blade I'm missing the 2nd easiest gear and one random gear in the middle of the cassette that is a bit sticky. Still don't understand why sram wouldn't let us micro ajust gear by gear...

[DieselnDust]

18 minutes ago, Jbr said:

yeah it did, it's really not great though on a 10-28T cassette. Like they say on that gravelers website they do it so they can use bigger cassettes than 33T. So at the moment I've got 14 gears I can't use. If I set the B limit screw so that I can use the small blade, then the derailleur is way too far from the cassette on the big blade. If I set it so that I can only use the big blade I'm missing the 2nd easiest gear and one random gear in the middle of the cassette that is a bit sticky. Still don't understand why sram wouldn't let us micro ajust gear by gear...

its not so much the micro-adjustment but rather that the MTB derailleur is only spring loaded at the derailleur pulley cage knuckle and articulates at this point during shifting because its designed to operate with a single chainring. Hence you will only ever be able to optimise it for one chainring. A derailleur designed to work with two chainrings has a spring loaded mounting ear and derailleur jockey cage so it can optimally tension the chain across both chainrings

[droo]

4 hours ago, DieselnDust said:

its not so much the micro-adjustment but rather that the MTB derailleur is only spring loaded at the derailleur pulley cage knuckle and articulates at this point during shifting because its designed to operate with a single chainring. Hence you will only ever be able to optimise it for one chainring. A derailleur designed to work with two chainrings has a spring loaded mounting ear and derailleur jockey cage so it can optimally tension the chain across both chainrings

Also 1x RDs have horizontal parallelograms and use the distance between the B knuckle and the top pulley to compensate for the change in cog sizes, where 2x RDs have a parallelogram that's angled to track the cassette. The horizontal parallelogram counters the sticky shifting from early clutch RDs by decoupling the clutch force from the shifter.

 

Either way, a 1x RD won't work on a 2x system.

[Jbr]

5 minutes ago, droo said:

Also 1x RDs have horizontal parallelograms and use the distance between the B knuckle and the top pulley to compensate for the change in cog sizes, where 2x RDs have a parallelogram that's angled to track the cassette. The horizontal parallelogram counters the sticky shifting from early clutch RDs by decoupling the clutch force from the shifter.

 

Either way, a 1x RD won't work on a 2x system.

yeah even using one blade only I couldn't really get the shifting good enough to make it raceable. I'm putting everything back on the MTB and will find another bike to race while I'm waiting for the new RD. Thanks for the input I tried,  would have been pretty cool if it worked !

[Cunning-Stunt]

Hi Hubbers,

I was asked a question this week and made me think.... 

Is there any "real" difference between an 11 speed crank & a 12 speed crank. eg XT m8000 vs XT m8100?

In other words, if you slapped a 12 spd upgrade kit and new front chainring, chain and cassette on your bike and kept your 11 speed crank would there be any detriment to the set up? It surely could only affect the chainline perhaps?

Also, anyone know of any differences between running shimano / sram cranks with the opposite brands cassette / derailleur? Any detriment there too?

Thanks in advance!  🖖

Edited December 9, 2021 by Cunning-Stunt

[TheoG]

1 hour ago, Cunning-Stunt said:

Hi Hubbers,

I was asked a question this week and made me think.... 

Is there any "real" difference between an 11 speed crank & a 12 speed crank. eg XT m8000 vs XTm8120?

In other words, if you slapped a 12 spd upgrade kit and new front chainring, chain and cassette on your bike and kept your 11 speed crank would there be any detriment to the set up? It surely could only affect the chainline perhaps?

Also, anyone know of any differences between running shimano / sram cranks with the opposite brands cassette / derailleur? Any detriment there too?

Thanks in advance!  🖖

I'm running with a 2x (originally "10 spd") crankset in front setup as a 1x, no issues whatsoever.  I also see no issues running 1x with SRAM in front and Shimano rear or vice versa.  As long as the chainring is "narrow-wide" you should be fine.

It is important though to mount the chainring in the position that is best for the overall chain-line.

Edit:  imho, there is no such thing as a 10/11/12 speed crankset (only 1x, 2x or 3x).  If you run a 1x system, you can make any of them work with more or less effort.

Edited December 9, 2021 by TheoG

[Cunning-Stunt]

1 minute ago, TheoG said:

I'm running with a 2x (originally "10 spd") crankset in front setup as a 1x, no issues whatsoever.  I also see no issues running 1x with SRAM in front and Shimano rear or vice versa.  As long as the chainring is "narrow-wide" you should be fine.

It is important though to mount the chainring in the position that is best for the overall chain-line.

Thanks Theo. I'm of that same opinion. Maybe a spacer between the crank and NW chainring as an example but otherwise I don't see any "real difference"

[MudLark]

On 11/2/2021 at 1:43 PM, droo said:

Replace your chain before 0.5% and your cassette and chainring should last indefinitely.

Been my experience.

[Brett CT]

On 11/8/2021 at 11:26 AM, copperhead said:

The problem lies within the manufacturers of stuff. If they made parts of cassettes available then that would work. The smallest 2 or 3 gears are the ones that need replacing. The rest are fine. But nooooo they won't do that. Full cassette. It someone made this option available then I would use their product. Unless you know a fix to this problem? 

I have recently run into this problem when changing my chain that my smallest 11t cog was especially worn and would skip with the new chain. I found out that you can buy single 11t cogs (and a few other sizes) from wish.com for like R70. I have been running it now from 2 months and haven't had any issues. I know that the cogs themselves are cheap Chinese stuff and I will probably have to change it out sooner than the rest of the cassette but it has saved me from having to buy a new cassette now. Its worth giving it a try if you were planning on changing cassettes anyway. The delivery is through SAPO so it does take like a month to arrive but the SAPO does have an agreement with Wish to share tracking info so they do tend to actually arrive now, which is nice.

[Jbr]

9 minutes ago, Brett CT said:

I have recently run into this problem when changing my chain that my smallest 11t cog was especially worn and would skip with the new chain. I found out that you can buy single 11t cogs (and a few other sizes) from wish.com for like R70. I have been running it now from 2 months and haven't had any issues. I know that the cogs themselves are cheap Chinese stuff and I will probably have to change it out sooner than the rest of the cassette but it has saved me from having to buy a new cassette now. Its worth giving it a try if you were planning on changing cassettes anyway. The delivery is through SAPO so it does take like a month to arrive but the SAPO does have an agreement with Wish to share tracking info so they do tend to actually arrive now, which is nice.

No I don't think it's worth giving a try.

[Steady Spin]

This works extremely well. About 5000km on the Sunrace cassette and 3000 on the XTR derailleur. 

Shifting like butter and no skipping under hard pushes. Even sorted out that one gear that I could never get 100% quiet. 

XX1 chain and GX chainring  

[Steady Spin]

Is a 10-52 too much of a stretch on Shimano derailleurs? 

I would have gone with a shimano cassette but there are no Microspline freehubs available for the Lyne High Engagement hubs I have. XD or HG only. 

[Kom]

Going to add my experience to this thread of mixing SRAM Eagle Gen 1 components with a new SRAM Gen 2 T-Type AXS Rear derailleur.

My aim was to just change to an AXS T-Type (Transmission) rear derailleur from my  gen 1 GX AXS rear derailleur, still of the hanger fitted type.

The TL:DR is that it works perfectly!

The journey:

1-Removing the hanger and fitting the T-TYPE RD can be weird, it doesnt lock in until you actually fit the rear wheel and thread the thru axle into the mount, otherwise the hanger seems quite sloppy.

2-You need to lookup the key setting for installing the RD, SRAM have a web page for this configuration which advises on the key (A/B), Chain Length and which cog on the cassette to tighten the RD up on for removing slack. 

3-my first hack-i used the AXS thumb shifter from my Gen 1 RD, pairs perfectly, works per normal

4-my second hack-ive kept my OG Eagle 10-50t cassette, 12-speed chain and 32t chainring, but this doesnt actually work-the new T-Type cassettes now have a 2.5mm offset - but with some invention, a 2.5mm shim does adjust the older cassette to index perfectly.

Thats it!

Some Notes:

- the shim behind the cassette compromises the total purchase of the mount, SRAM would say this could lead to failure (so far its working fine for me, have inspected after a couple of rides with no visible wear)

- the firmware on the t-type RD is meant to synchronise with specific pickup points on the new t-type cassettes which allow for smoother shifting. in my experience the way ive installed it is seemless, if not better than my previous AXS RD.

- rapid fire shifting on the t-type RD is no where near as fast as my previous RD, it does this weird laggy change if you fire too many shifts.