Munga 2021

[Shebeen]

On 12/4/2021 at 5:05 PM, taito said:

The leading lady has gone off route and taken a shortcut..HKGK

 

On 12/4/2021 at 8:37 PM, River Rat said:

I wonder what the censure will be a DQ or just excluded from the medals? 

 

On 12/4/2021 at 9:00 PM, Prince Albert Cycles said:

Or a time penalty

 

On 12/5/2021 at 9:04 AM, milky4130 said:

has there been an outcome yet? if so I missed it but if the event is CSA sanctioned then judging by the current trend of Cycling in SA that is a definite DQ,

 

On 12/5/2021 at 10:40 AM, Jack Black SA said:

Yes 90min time Penalty was instated! Martie Joubert won!

That is the rule! She won fair and square!

 

one tough lady!!!!

I just checked the rules*.

I wouldn't be suprised if #2 lodged a protest big money involved here, and the rules are pretty clear in this case.

Surely CSA commissaire decision?

 

 

BUT there is this iffy statement that disclaims everything.

We don't want to sound like stiffs, but any rider found breaking the rules, will be penalised or disqualified. So make sure you are familiar with the rules before setting out on your Munga journey.

INTRODUCTION AND THE DPA These rules serve as a guideline for both riders and the Race Director and Commissaire. For the riders, they should use these rules to develop a good understanding of the criteria through which fairness is applied. For the Race Director and Commissaire, these rules will inform and guide their thinking into making a fair decision when dealing with rule infringes and contraventions. The Race Director will use a Dual Principle Approach (DPA) in deciding what is a fair decision. The two principles in the DPA are the letter of the law and the spirit or motivation behind the contravention. The following describes what these two principles are about:

1. The letter of the law: This is the actual rules document that break down the various rules and contracts and consequent penalties. So what does the rule specifically say and what is its intention?

2. The spirit or motivation of the offence: This means what was motivating the individual when he broke a rule? Was it a complete accident, or was he intentionally trying to obtain an unfair advantage? In using the DPA, the Race Director will look at both aspects. Obviously the first will be easy to determine as the rules document lays out the law so to speak. The second one is harder to determine but the Race Director, along with the Commissaire and any other person that the Race Director deems relevant in the specific case, will assess what motivated the rider when he broke a rule. Using both principles, the Race Director will then make a call whether the infraction has been unfair to other competitors or not, and whether the rider in question has gained an advantage. The ultimate objective is to make a fair decision. The rules are subservient to the principle of fairness. In addition, the Munga is a semi-supported race and as such, there are some unique elements to the Race. This means the parameters and rules need to be clearly defined, appreciated and understood by all riders. It is the rider’s responsibility to make sure he is familiar with and understands all of the Rules and the implications thereof, as well as the DPA. If a rider is unclear about any of the Rules, the onus is on the rider to contact the Race organizer and seek clarity.

 

 

 

* I assume this document from the website are the current rules, The only date is a spot price of bitcoin from november 2019, which is a little bit ourdated.

[milky4130]

4 hours ago, Shebeen said:

that is pretty standard.

 

gps gets a fix but continuously uploads position as it goes from 5km accuracy  to 5m.

 

cyclist didn't move a meter during that time.

Ah I didnt know that, just strange that it was only him that appeared to have "gone off route" about that time. Will teach me to dot watch late at night when I should be getting some sleep like right now 🥱

[Spy007]

Ask around. Some. Guys have gotten lost and did extra and I mean extra km. But you have to go back to where you left. In 2019 few guys pulled pulled out due to go's failing in the heat or not working properly and getting turned around. I found 3 guys thta got lost and ended up following me to. An rv. 2 lost for 3 hours and one riding in the wrong direction for 2. When they say put your bike the way you are going it is not a joke. You can ride on the wrong side of a fence and not even know it. When the ride while you sleep hits it can really screw with your mind. 

 

['Dale]

Amazing tweet

[River Rat]

13 hours ago, Shebeen said:

 

 

 

 

I just checked the rules*.

I wouldn't be suprised if #2 lodged a protest big money involved here, and the rules are pretty clear in this case.

Surely CSA commissaire decision?

 

 

BUT there is this iffy statement that disclaims everything.

We don't want to sound like stiffs, but any rider found breaking the rules, will be penalised or disqualified. So make sure you are familiar with the rules before setting out on your Munga journey.

INTRODUCTION AND THE DPA These rules serve as a guideline for both riders and the Race Director and Commissaire. For the riders, they should use these rules to develop a good understanding of the criteria through which fairness is applied. For the Race Director and Commissaire, these rules will inform and guide their thinking into making a fair decision when dealing with rule infringes and contraventions. The Race Director will use a Dual Principle Approach (DPA) in deciding what is a fair decision. The two principles in the DPA are the letter of the law and the spirit or motivation behind the contravention. The following describes what these two principles are about:

1. The letter of the law: This is the actual rules document that break down the various rules and contracts and consequent penalties. So what does the rule specifically say and what is its intention?

2. The spirit or motivation of the offence: This means what was motivating the individual when he broke a rule? Was it a complete accident, or was he intentionally trying to obtain an unfair advantage? In using the DPA, the Race Director will look at both aspects. Obviously the first will be easy to determine as the rules document lays out the law so to speak. The second one is harder to determine but the Race Director, along with the Commissaire and any other person that the Race Director deems relevant in the specific case, will assess what motivated the rider when he broke a rule. Using both principles, the Race Director will then make a call whether the infraction has been unfair to other competitors or not, and whether the rider in question has gained an advantage. The ultimate objective is to make a fair decision. The rules are subservient to the principle of fairness. In addition, the Munga is a semi-supported race and as such, there are some unique elements to the Race. This means the parameters and rules need to be clearly defined, appreciated and understood by all riders. It is the rider’s responsibility to make sure he is familiar with and understands all of the Rules and the implications thereof, as well as the DPA. If a rider is unclear about any of the Rules, the onus is on the rider to contact the Race organizer and seek clarity.

 

 

 

* I assume this document from the website are the current rules, The only date is a spot price of bitcoin from november 2019, which is a little bit ourdated.

I think we are seeing the spirit element being applied here. I was supporting the 3rd placed lady providing her with information on her competitors and I can honestly say that in pure numbers MJ could have backtracked and rejoined in half of the 90 minutes. However what could have made a difference is that turning back might have exposed her to the storm that stopped the other two top contenders in their tracks,  they were both holed up for 7 hours. For LS it was exactly at a time when she wanted to make a move on FV with a realistic chance of catching her, as it turned out FV could start riding earlier as the storm subsided earlier where she was holed up. MJ stayed ahead of the worst part of the storm riding while her two contenders were sheltered in place, it is very difficult to say if turning back as opposed  to continuing would have had the same effect on her. My personal opinion is that the race might have been a bit closer between MJ and FV but the outcome would have been the same. I am extremely chuffed for LS and her third place in her first Munga.

Edited December 7, 2021 by River Rat

[Shebeen]

32 minutes ago, River Rat said:

I think we are seeing the spirit element being applied here. I was supporting the 3rd placed lady providing her with information on her competitors and I can honestly say that in pure numbers MJ could have backtracked and rejoined in half of the 90 minutes. However what could have made a difference is that turning back might have exposed her to the storm that stopped the other two top contenders in their tracks,  they were both holed up for 7 hours. For LS it was exactly at a time when she wanted to make a move on FV with a realistic chance of catching her, as it turned out FV could start riding earlier as the storm subsided earlier where she was holed up. MJ stayed ahead of the worst part of the storm riding while her two contenders were sheltered in place, it is very difficult to say if turning back as opposed  to continuing would have had the same effect on her. My personal opinion is that the race might have been a bit closer between MJ and FV but the outcome would have been the same. I am extremely chuffed for LS and her third place in her first Munga.

ok so what you're saying is that if she followed the rules and backtracked she would have been severely disadvantaged by the storm?

sounds like it was better to take the penalty in her case.

 

When you have rules that are absolutely clear, but apply them subjectively it becomes a slippery slope. When it applies to the first place rider, it is even more under the spotlight.

Navigation is a crucial part of this race. it is a skill. same way as riding your bike down a hill at night. Making a nav error should be costly. 

 

and this has happened before, just not for first place, so I'd be interested to see what the CSA commisaire said. Emma patten probably wishes she got the same guy at ride joburg.

 

 

[walkerr]

59 minutes ago, River Rat said:

 ... I was supporting the 3rd placed lady providing her with information on her competitors ...

Technically speaking - that is also a very grey area. In theory, riders should receive no outside support from family or friends - beyond maybe the odd text to cheer them up or chivvy them along. If racers want to check on the condition and placement of competitors, they should be doing it themselves on their own devices. It's not a rule that is widely or openly enforced, and the wording in the rules is vague - it talks about no support from family and friends in towns or at WPs, whereas "information" supplied remotely could be considered not strictly breaking that. But it is a sketchy area and one to be very careful of in a race with a semi-unsupported format.

[River Rat]

19 minutes ago, Shebeen said:

ok so what you're saying is that if she followed the rules and backtracked she would have been severely disadvantaged by the storm?

sounds like it was better to take the penalty in her case.

 

When you have rules that are absolutely clear, but apply them subjectively it becomes a slippery slope. When it applies to the first place rider, it is even more under the spotlight.

Navigation is a crucial part of this race. it is a skill. same way as riding your bike down a hill at night. Making a nav error should be costly. 

 

and this has happened before, just not for first place, so I'd be interested to see what the CSA commisaire said. Emma patten probably wishes she got the same guy at ride joburg.

 

 

It's a difficult one and I actually overheard what I believe was the commissaire on the Munga Facebook video say to MJ at her finish that they will work out the time but she shouldn't be worried. I  think in the substance over form debate it's difficult to bring the storm into the mix, however what we now have is a precedent that cutting out 45 minutes of riding equals 90 minutes of penalty. This might just be an unwanted factor used in future races.

[River Rat]

4 minutes ago, walkerr said:

Technically speaking - that is also a very grey area. In theory, riders should receive no outside support from family or friends - beyond maybe the odd text to cheer them up or chivvy them along. If racers want to check on the condition and placement of competitors, they should be doing it themselves on their own devices. It's not a rule that is widely or openly enforced, and the wording in the rules is vague - it talks about no support from family and friends in towns or at WPs, whereas "information" supplied remotely could be considered not strictly breaking that. But it is a sketchy area and one to be very careful of in a race with a semi-unsupported format.

I believe that the context is that it would be unfair if that support is not available to all riders, I suspect that all riders had access to WhatsApp and Facebook. I  also have no doubt that all the top riders were given information on the their rivals, heck you could read it right here if you had the time and energy. 

[walkerr]

26 minutes ago, River Rat said:

I believe that the context is that it would be unfair if that support is not available to all riders, I suspect that all riders had access to WhatsApp and Facebook. I  also have no doubt that all the top riders were given information on the their rivals, heck you could read it right here if you had the time and energy. 

Yeah, it's a trickly area. At the TCRNo5 briefing it was cited as a specific example that was outside the lines - the comment being that yes, every rider has access to TL, but it takes them time to use it to look up where other racers are. Whereas custom texts from friends etc with an update on how far ahead/behind they are, can be read without even stopping pedalling, so there is a time advantage. Access to the tools (WhatsApp / FB etc) is something that all riders have - but having a person checking and supplying per-racer information may not be, and can save a racer time. Munga obviously has somewhat modified rules to the normal "fully unsupported racing" rule set used by TCR and others (mostly though to cater for the semi unsupported nature to define what is allowed), and as you say, the top riders are probably all getting it anyway.

Edited December 7, 2021 by walkerr

[Andrew Steer]

Some more food for thought... Kim Brearley missed cut-off by 4 minutes. 50km's odd from the end, she missed a turn and did I'd guess about 3-4km's off course, and then back-tracked those km's to the route and continued. That definitely cost her a finishers medal. 

There were two gents just up the road ahead of her, they also went off course at the same spot - but I don't think they back tracked, but cut across to the route (hard to tell as the tracking wasn't regular)

I don't think they should have been disqualified, no advantage was gained... but Kim clearly also knew the rules and did what was expected of her to protect her finish.

Nobody want's disqualifications, nobody want's controversy - things must just be equal and fair. I recall Hannele Steyn doing an extra 70kms+ the one year as a result of a wrong turn.

You can't control the weather or the conditions, but what you certainly can control is the clarity and consistency of rule application.

Rules is Rules, if you are racing for what is not small prize money - best you know them

 

PS: None of this should take the shine off an awesome bloody event - call it constructive criticism 

[walkerr]

3 minutes ago, Andrew Steer said:

PS: None of this should take the shine off an awesome bloody event - call it constructive criticism 

Amen to that.

[Ozzie NL]

1 hour ago, Shebeen said:

ok so what you're saying is that if she followed the rules and backtracked she would have been severely disadvantaged by the storm?

sounds like it was better to take the penalty in her case.

 

When you have rules that are absolutely clear, but apply them subjectively it becomes a slippery slope. When it applies to the first place rider, it is even more under the spotlight.

Navigation is a crucial part of this race. it is a skill. same way as riding your bike down a hill at night. Making a nav error should be costly. 

 

and this has happened before, just not for first place, so I'd be interested to see what the CSA commisaire said. Emma patten probably wishes she got the same guy at ride joburg.

 

 

Let me take a wild guess ...... you're a lawyer?

[River Rat]

18 minutes ago, walkerr said:

Yeah, it's a trickly area. At the TCRNo5 briefing it was cited as a specific example that was outside the lines - the comment being that yes, every rider has access to TL, but it takes them time to use it to look up where other racers are. Whereas custom texts from friends etc with an update on how far ahead/behind they are, can be read without even stopping pedalling, so there is a time advantage. Access to the tools (WhatsApp / FB etc) is something that all riders have - but having a person checking and supplying per-racer information may not be, and can save a racer time. Munga obviously has somewhat modified rules to the normal "fully unsupported racing" rule set used by TCR and others (mostly though to cater for the semi unsupported nature to define what is allowed), and as you say, the top riders are probably all getting it anyway.

Come on how difficult is it open the page of a rider in TL and simply refresh the position on the fly? A simple race strategy would be to open the pages of your closest rivals and refresh this when you have signal.  I  know some riders do this to check their own position and  whether they might have veered off course or not. The information is available to all riders it's up to them to use it their choice. If this is indeed deemed a transgression there would be a back marker from last year that would have unfairly benefited from my WhatsApp message telling him to backtrack when he went off course. 

[Shebeen]

2 hours ago, Ossie NL said:

Let me take a wild guess ...... you're a lawyer?

no an engineer, so I like data!

 

but this is pretty basic. it's a navigation race. and people can't seem to find this turnoff. Maybe they should spend some of the budget on a neon sign or something for the start of it. but seriously following breadcrumbs on a screen is not hard. It's near the bottom of the bo swaarmoed so you don't have to go all the way back up, it's about 4km and 70m up once you hit the big road (and obviously realise you've gone wrong)

Just letting the tracker run through at 4096 speed and ticking off the riders who missed this one, again. Apologies if any mistakes made here, just a quick peek. I'm not

Martie Joubert/Jaco Ferreira
Marco Ferdinandi
Dale de Kiewiet (huge detour but possibly had pulled out by then)
Sylvia du Raan (scratched due to time limit)
Werner Schmidt

The only who went back was Mireille Koster, but she missed the final cut-off by 90 minutes so got scratched. this cost her just 20-30 minutes

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Shebeen]

3 hours ago, walkerr said:

Yeah, it's a trickly area. At the TCRNo5 briefing it was cited as a specific example that was outside the lines - the comment being that yes, every rider has access to TL, but it takes them time to use it to look up where other racers are. Whereas custom texts from friends etc with an update on how far ahead/behind they are, can be read without even stopping pedalling, so there is a time advantage. Access to the tools (WhatsApp / FB etc) is something that all riders have - but having a person checking and supplying per-racer information may not be, and can save a racer time. Munga obviously has somewhat modified rules to the normal "fully unsupported racing" rule set used by TCR and others (mostly though to cater for the semi unsupported nature to define what is allowed), and as you say, the top riders are probably all getting it anyway.

I think this is impossible to police, and the advantage is negligible.

Yes it's nice to know where other people are but what do you do with that information? You maybe leave a bit earlier so they don't see you in transition. they still get there and see the sign in/out times.

You both still need to push a crank around with your legs - drafting is a much bigger issue and easier to enforce (if that's what you want)