WTF CSA?

[PhilipV]

So if CSA fines an athlete, how do they enforce that fine?

Is it like the Universiteit Stellenbosch Beskerming Dienste Parking Fine that I got in 2009, and never paid, it didn't even go off my student account.

If an athlete decides "stuff CSA, I ain't paying," will CSA refuse to issue a license for next year? What if the athlete doesn't even apply for a license next year.

Is CSA a toothless dog?

[Frosty]

The question is asked, and I don't know why i just don't feel like being bothered to answer it. It feels like being asked to justify your criticisms when you are not the one at fault. Start at the beginning of this thread and focus on what people are saying about their problems with CSA then start addressing those instead of beating the messenger (who, let's face it, is also expected to pay CSA's bills).

But, since it's an issue and there is the insinuation that no one here is actually involved, I suppose I should answer. I have been on a club committee for 5 years (2013-2017) and on an event organizing committee for 6 going on 7. And now I just want to ride my bike...

But I can't help myself because if no one organizes anything, nothing happens.

In our area, there have been a number of clubs. They come and go, mostly when the focus shifts from participation to racing. Our neighbors in East London, FunTrax, haven't had that fate, I think because they've got the focus right.

Some CSA commissaires have been helpful to us in making suggestions about our event but on the whole we could have done things just as well without them. In the end they are only there to add stress, tick boxes, and cause issues with our sponsor. Some of the things I've seen are not ethical at all, because commissaires also come from cycling communities and are not always impartial. It makes sense to have a national body overseeing races to make sure that they are run safely and properly. But when the commissaires leave before the end of the event (as some have) because the sharp point of the field have got their prizes, then you have to wonder.

I can go on but I won't.

I can say though that no small event can pay the people who voluntarily put in the time to make it happen. And I can say that costs of services INCLUDING CSA to run the event are much higher than people think and sponsorships hard to come by and small when you do. It's also a huge challenge to find enough people to do the committee work and marshall on the day.

So hats off to those who put on an event like K2C. I have some idea of what's involved behind the scenes and do wish more people would get behind their clubs but fully understand why they don't. For one thing, where's the buck going to stop if things go wrong? You give rider briefings, in writing, via email, Facebook, on the start line, over and over and people still don't head the safety warnings, some as simple as keep left of the middle line on an open road. What happens if they connect a car? Sure, you can say, it's their own fault, but we as organizers feel personally involved, so you don't just walk away from accidents and problems like everyone else.

I've moved away from CSA a bit here, but, actually, the point is made -- there is so much that volunteers are expected to do to make cycling as a sport (for participation AND competition) happen but you don't get much support in this process. ASA has managed to keep clubs going by insisting people have club membership to get their licenses. CSA has a "membership" category that no longer requires club affiliation. So, why belong to a club? To pay your subs so you can be on the committee??

If there's one thing CSA can look at, it's how to support clubs more and that means encouraging membership, encouraging and promoting small and big events alike and encouraging participation. What we had, instead, besides the big stick to follow rules for sanctioning was a notice saying clubs MUST get involved in cycling development, i.e. growing the sport in "non traditional" (yes, poor, black) communities. How?? We can hardly find people to time-keep and post results at trials and hill climbs.

So, why would you want to belong to a club?? Do you? If so, what are the benefits and how do you get other people to join?

Or, what???

I challenge CSA "fans" (you guys want a fence) to have a good look at the situation and tell us what they are doing to grow the sport, not just for those who have racing licenses, but for everyone. And don't be so sensitive if you aren't responsible for past problems, just accept that they exist and need dealing with.

PS: I am an upcountry PPA member and have been for years but dropped my CSA membership in 2016 when I couldn't renew it because although I'm on their system apparently I don't have a valid email address, so cannot register or have my password reset or get it done by their staff.

I can honestly say I know the feeling you describe above. It’s like I’m describing myself.

 

I liked the bit highlighted in bold... But I can't help myself because if no one organizes anything, nothing happens.

[DieselnDust]

So if CSA fines an athlete, how do they enforce that fine?

Is it like the Universiteit Stellenbosch Beskerming Dienste Parking Fine that I got in 2009, and never paid, it didn't even go off my student account.

If an athlete decides "stuff CSA, I ain't paying," will CSA refuse to issue a license for next year? What if the athlete doesn't even apply for a license next year.

Is CSA a toothless dog?

Afaik if you don't settle any fines you don't get a license for the new year and can even have your license cancelled.

Don't want to renew anyway? well then you've done the CSA a favour. Fines are more an inconvenience factor than a money making racket. This isn't the road traffic services.

[River Rat]

Afaik if you don't settle any fines you don't get a license for the new year and can even have your license cancelled.

Don't want to renew anyway? well then you've done the CSA a favour. Fines are more an inconvenience factor than a money making racket. This isn't the road traffic services.

I'm starting to get the impression that according to you CSA would like less members.

[Pieterkaggel]

I didn't follow the details above but also got fined for K2C. 2 years ago also got fined.... Didn't pay and licenced again in 2017 and 2018. They were happy to take my money although I didn't pay my fine.... I replied to the mail asking for a meeting so we could discuss the issue.... Still no response. We need someone in charge that not corrupt and that will do something for the sport....

[Pieterkaggel]

My full, actual email in reply to the fine...

Good Day Dellah

This is an absolute laughable matter.....

I am 50 years old and enjoy cycling.... Please advise what you / your organization do (or ever did) for me.....

I would love to sit around a table and discuss the matter.....

As we all know, CSA is mismanaged and the treasury is corrupt and bankrupt... Yet you take my money every year....

Go and do something worthwhile for cyclist as a whole and the many people who love the sport.....

Vriendelike Groete

Kind regards

Edited October 8, 2018 by Pieterkaggel

[Eldron]

"Vriendelike Groete" - thats comedy gold right there.

 

The complete disconnect between CSA and cyclist is crazy. That a body designed to help cycling attracts this amount of scourn from the very people they're supposed to help is pretty damning.

[DieselnDust]

I'm starting to get the impression that according to you CSA would like less members.

 

 

I get the impression that you're just trolling and spoiling for an argument because I've never said that.

CSA has tried in the past to increase its membership base. However the way they went about it has left a bitter taste. Trying to force a merger with the PPA was not the way to do it. Patch is right in that CSA needs to review how they go about engaging.

However, that said the organistion does not exist to simply grow members. It exists to facilitate competitive cycling under the Olympic Code.

As cyclists its in our interest to support the structures that allows people like Mariska Strauss and Alan Hatherly to compete abroad.

How well that structure is run is also up to the members. 

So refusing to be a member, or participate in the structure isn't going to solve the problem

[Danger Dassie]

I like 

 

I get the impression that you're just trolling and spoiling for an argument because I've never said that.

CSA has tried in the past to increase its membership base. However the way they went about it has left a bitter taste. Trying to force a merger with the PPA was not the way to do it. Patch is right in that CSA needs to review how they go about engaging.

However, that said the organistion does not exist to simply grow members. It exists to facilitate competitive cycling under the Olympic Code.

As cyclists its in our interest to support the structures that allows people like Mariska Strauss and Alan Hatherly to compete abroad.

How well that structure is run is also up to the members. 

So refusing to be a member, or participate in the structure isn't going to solve the problem

There's some correlation there at best, but not the causation of the problems with CSA consistenly not fulfilling it's mandate.
People refusing to become members or participate is not the problem here.
As far as Hatherly and Strauss are concerned, the structures that allow them to compete is the fact that they have sound team management and sponsorship that fulfill the liason with CSA. 

[DieselnDust]

"Vriendelike Groete" - thats comedy gold right there.

 

The complete disconnect between CSA and cyclist is crazy. That a body designed to help cycling attracts this amount of scourn from the very people they're supposed to help is pretty damning.

 

 

Its actually damning to both sides. 

Its shows that the way we have gone about growing cycling in SA hasn't been the best example of how to do it.

We have this massive  funride body and then this small national federation. In Europe its the other way around.

I also think that the perception of what is being done is driven by how successful the regions are at delivering a product to the market. WPCycling does a pretty good job, whilst maybe Gauteng and NW isn't so good or not very active. Maybe some are strong in one disciple and not in the others. 

We won't have a strong CSA if we don't have strong regional bodies.

We won't have strong regional bodies unless people passionate about cycling participate in the more formal structures that govern cycling.

 

Its seems everyone is waiting for leadership from the top down and missing the elephant in the room.

Houses don't get built from the roof down but from the foundation up.

[DieselnDust]

I like 

 

There's some correlation there at best, but not the causation of the problems with CSA consistenly not fulfilling it's mandate.

People refusing to become members or participate is not the problem here.

As far as Hatherly and Strauss are concerned, the structures that allow them to compete is the fact that they have sound team management and sponsorship that fulfill the liason with CSA. 

 

 

 

Very true, but they had to start somewhere and that was in a race organised by their club or regional body.

Imagine how many more Alan's and Mariska's are out there if only they were encouraged to register for events that earned them provincial colours.

 

Also lets not forget that CSA is not a person. It's an organisation. The incompetence is the way it's run and that's a people problem.

Can't get the right people in there if they don;t know how to run a region or at minimum a large club

[Danger Dassie]

Very true, but they had to start somewhere and that was in a race organised by their club or regional body.

Imagine how many more Alan's and Mariska's are out there if only they were encouraged to register for events that earned them provincial colours.

 

Also lets not forget that CSA is not a person. It's an organisation. The incompetence is the way it's run and that's a people problem.

Can't get the right people in there if they don;t know how to run a region or at minimum a large club

And those were and are organised by passionate people with the support of the cycling community. There would be more if they weren't treated as mules. Nothing to do with a lack of support from the cycling community, in fact it's because of their support that these riders can compete.

 

Fully aware of CSA as an organisation and the history even before it bacame CSA, as well as the fact that there are a number of good people involved, specifically some of the commissaires.

Also the coaching commision and schools, who interestingly seem ring fenced to a degree as a structure from CSA exco. 

 

The fact of the matter is that the problems are at the top and the lack of leadership will affect member support. There is a severe problem with a broken trust and reputation.

[Eldron]

Its actually damning to both sides.

Its shows that the way we have gone about growing cycling in SA hasn't been the best example of how to do it.

We have this massive funride body and then this small national federation. In Europe its the other way around.

I also think that the perception of what is being done is driven by how successful the regions are at delivering a product to the market. WPCycling does a pretty good job, whilst maybe Gauteng and NW isn't so good or not very active. Maybe some are strong in one disciple and not in the others.

We won't have a strong CSA if we don't have strong regional bodies.

We won't have strong regional bodies unless people passionate about cycling participate in the more formal structures that govern cycling.

 

Its seems everyone is waiting for leadership from the top down and missing the elephant in the room.

Houses don't get built from the roof down but from the foundation up.

I do love a good cliché - I see your house building metaphor and raise you a "a fish rots from the head".

 

I disagree with us being responsible to fix the problem. I, like most, riders have jobs, mortgages, children etc with little to no time to ride let alone fix the CSA. I paid them money and expected a service. The service sucked. I complained. The service still sucked. I stopped giving them money. Personally I think the onus is on them to solve the problems.

[Eugene]

My full, actual email in reply to the fine...

Good Day Dellah

This is an absolute laughable matter.....

I am 50 years old and enjoy cycling.... Please advise what you / your organization do (or ever did) for me.....

I would love to sit around a table and discuss the matter.....

As we all know, CSA is mismanaged and the treasury is corrupt and bankrupt... Yet you take my money every year....

Go and do something worthwhile for cyclist as a whole and the many people who love the sport.....

Vriendelike Groete

Kind regards

not surprised with a mail like this.

 

If you really wanted to sit around a table and discuss, something less aggressive would have had more success.

 

Having said that, most of your mail summarises what we all feel.

[snaphaan]

My take on 70 pages of fun.

  

 

I own a doughnut shop.

I have a mission, vision and strategy ( from the '90s)

I have suppliers sorted

I have recipes and procedures.

I have well trained personnel.

I have the best working equipment.

 

I PROMISE the customer Value for money.

 

Now my manager does not order confectioners sugar. Uses the funds for another purpose. 

Doughnuts goes out as is.

Customers complain, don't want to pay, stay away, get upset with my business   

I explain that it is Still Value for Money, Customers can add their own sugar, everybody has some at home.

 

Business fail!

 

It is not the customers fault.

The failure was my own, as the owner, I am responsible for managing the business.  

 

Now the way I see this.

All The customers are also the collective owner.

But they only want to pay and eat doughnuts, not make or bake them.

So the system has no clear line of responsibility or accountability. 

This is not a workable solution. Full stop. 

[gogo@]

snaphaan puts the icing on the elephant in the room... expecting a professional service to be offered all down the chain (business) when most involved are customers/amateurs. Then you draw on that for your top structure??

How does the PPA get it right (mostly) when CSA doesn’t (mostly)? I’m not convinced that the CSA model is actually right for purpose and that it’s just a ‘wrong people’ issue. Is it?