[Event] EWC 3 Jonkershoek Enduro

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

 

The last Enduro that we had where 150 tags would have been enough was last year at Jonkers, but that could be because the dates were changed, and some people could not make it on the second date.  We had just under 300 riders at Jonkers on Sunday, about 275 I think.  The starter kit would then not cost you R180k but more like R340k because they would need at least 300 tags and you have to add the software to the package.  And this will limit you to only 5 stages.

 

The pods we use at EWC can also be reprogramed on the fly by the marshals to time a different stage if we need to replace faulty pods.  Last year at Ezelenduro PhilipV were able to take stage one pods to stage 5, reprogram them and all was happy.  

 

On Sunday we had 2 possible no scans on the stage 3 start pod and one possible no scan on 4 start.  This could have been miss scans where the lights did not go on and the pod did not beep and the rider should have taged again, most likely, or a glitch in the system.  But only 3 possible miss scans for the whole event is not too bad.  I know Dan has been testing the pods from stage 3 after the event to try and duplicate a miss scan but he could not get a miss scan again.  I would say they are quite reliable. 

 

The biggest issue with not scanning someone out in time is usually the tag not facing down or someone’s long sleeve shirt is over the tag and the marshal cannot see the tag. 

 

Long story short, the EWS system would be awesome but with the cost of medics and other stuff they are not making enough money to justify the expense for the system.  If there were more events like this in SA and they could rent it out, maybe then….  

 

100% - 290 riders entered, AFAIK. 

 

And yeah, to accommodate 300 riders would have been a LOT more than the base cost, which is why I linked to the cost of additional units, too. Another 150 tags would be $ 10,200 taking the cost for 300 riders to a min $22,200 or so. Nee dankie. 

 

Plus - cost of new passive tags and the lead time vs cost of new active tags and lead time, not to mention getting them through ICASA if they were to get here (yes, that's another hoop that could be there)

[Edge_Design]

Sure.

 

290 x 300 = R87000.

 

Not everyone of the 290 paid (volunteers etc)

 

Do you really think there are sponsors who donate money? 

 

I get what you are saying, but 1 year ago Enduro races were dead. Cancelled due to lack of interest.

 

EWC has invested a heap of time, effort and resource re creating the scene.

 

Asking them to then outlay everything to better improve the timing system they created themselves is a bit cheeky?

 

They designed the system because all the other systems wouldn't work or made putting on the races an economic hole.

 

I think if people are so intent on their split seconds they should put their own hands in their own pockets, otherwise just be really really thankful that the EWC team have sweated blood to give us a series worth entering, with times for every stage.

 

If you were around for the pre EWC events you will appreciate how good this system is.

 

As a package I am super stoked with the EWC. My times don't really matter and no offence, neither do any of ours on this forum.

 

I thought entries were R400 (discounted if you prepaid for all 3 events as I did)?

 

I don't care about my times at all but just surprised that the tech isn't a little bit better - as this is the first year it has really taken off I wouldn't have expected money to be spent in 2019 but it's more a thought going forwards into 2020 and beyond.

 

Once again - limited sponsors this year makes sense but they should be able to get a series sponsor for 2020+ who is willing to part with some money to improve the events based on the success this year (and riders are clearly spending some real money on bikes and equipment now!).

 

Don't get me wrong, I fully understand the issues that exist and I loved the events this year, but I don't know the cost of timing equipment or what options are available. I also strongly believe in continuous improvement once you have some success and this is an area that could be improved.

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Thanks - that's a lot more than I would have expected it to cost and I definitely agree that isn't practical. I wonder where the systems used by the XC events come from and if they couldn't be rented for these events if they work for this type of special stage timing.

 

I don't really agree the existing system works well (by 2019 tech standards) but it does work which is priority number 1.

the problem with the XC timing is that it's just point to point, and is also pretty expensive. You're also going to a 3rd party provider (Racetec etc) and that's an additional cost. Even then, there are issues that come from bad chips and system issues. 

 

the EWC system is in place for a reason. It's low cost, and is better than all the others in place at this point in time. 

[Jewbacca]

Thanks - that's a lot more than I would have expected it to cost and I definitely agree that isn't practical. I wonder where the systems used by the XC events come from and if they couldn't be rented for these events if they work for this type of special stage timing.

 

I don't really agree the existing system works well (by 2019 tech standards) but it does work which is priority number 1.

As a matter of interest, Have you 'raced' anywhere else and how much experience do you have dealing with timing equipment?

 

I merely ask because all the chip and reader based timing systems weigh a ton and are bulky. Try getting timing mats up to stage 4 and 5 at Ezelenduro, or half way up the mountain where bakkies can't go.

 

Then, if there is a battery failure, the race will be called off because there is seldom a back up system. 

 

Otherwise donate your time, money and effort into developing a better system so that everyone wins.

 

Knocking something is easy, but not really constructive. 

 

I honestly don't believe anyone is complaining about anything after what was essentially the first properly successful Enduro series ever. 

 

I am celebrating the fact that it is back on. I got a time for all my stages and the races were fully subscribed. STOKED

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

valid points re weight and accessibility! Even Meurant's "mobile" units aren't particularly mobile and need to be transported by bakkie if you have a few of them. 

[Dan Dob]

Thanks hubbers (and timing marshalls) for clarifying most of the timing issues (and plus points). Edge design, there is one massive point I think you have missed. We can't use any XC/marathon event timing system as those are lap based timing systems. Just one start gate and one end gate at the most. So very easy to buy and manage!

 

Enduro uses at least 4 start and 4 end systems (sometimes up to 6 depending on how many stages). So if we were to use any XC event system then we would have to buy at least 4 of those complete systems and then also lug those 12v car batteries around to  power them. Think about the cost of that...

 

There is of course active RFID (the range of the watches is a few meters so you don't have to tag directly) and we could implement that . Of course to do so we'd have to put our entry fees up to R1500 like all other enduro events in the world but I don't think our racers would enjoy that so much.

 

Also, your budget and income predictions are woefully incorrect. The committee don't make ANY money from hosting these events (hence why we are so angry when people think we do). Here are just a few (and these are a lot bigger than you think) of the costs that went into Jonkers race. Walkie Talkies, Medics,Photographer,EWS event license,Safety Officer,CSA Calendar Listing Fee,Commissaire,Car guards,Toilet rental,Security,Additional security,Stellies Municipality permit,Land access MTO,Staff meals,Videographer,Fire Extinguisher Rental ,Overflow Parking.

 

If you really want to improve the systems and races please come and help volunteer or join the committee.

 

I wrote a page about why we developed our timing system and why strava sucks and a few other important points if you'd like to know more

 

 

Thanks - that's a lot more than I would have expected it to cost and I definitely agree that isn't practical. I wonder where the systems used by the XC events come from and if they couldn't be rented for these events if they work for this type of special stage timing.

 

I don't really agree the existing system works well (by 2019 tech standards) but it does work which is priority number 1.

Edited October 10, 2019 by iRide

[Bos]

I thought entries were R400 (discounted if you prepaid for all 3 events as I did)?

 

I don't care about my times at all but just surprised that the tech isn't a little bit better - as this is the first year it has really taken off I wouldn't have expected money to be spent in 2019 but it's more a thought going forwards into 2020 and beyond.

 

Once again - limited sponsors this year makes sense but they should be able to get a series sponsor for 2020+ who is willing to part with some money to improve the events based on the success this year (and riders are clearly spending some real money on bikes and equipment now!).

 

Don't get me wrong, I fully understand the issues that exist and I loved the events this year, but I don't know the cost of timing equipment or what options are available. I also strongly believe in continuous improvement once you have some success and this is an area that could be improved

 

IRide beat me to it...

 

How does one delete a now Obsolete post 

Edited October 10, 2019 by Bos

[Dan Dob]

No need RFID is highly limited to close range to power up the chip. You can get a few more centimeters by using high voltage but not much and it's not worth it.

 

One day we'd love to have and active RFID system if the cost ever goes down but not for in the foreseeable future. Sure, the EWS uses active RFID and some enduro races in Europe and America but most enduro races around the world (think Trans BC, Ireland Enduro, Transprovence etc) still use the tag out system similar to ours due to the complexities of enduro and being outdoors in big mountains.

 

IRide beat me to it...

 

Dow does one delete a now Obsolete post 

[Dan Dob]

valid points re weight and accessibility! Even Meurant's "mobile" units aren't particularly mobile and need to be transported by bakkie if you have a few of them. 

We built our system primarily for the needs of EzelEnduro. You ain't getting no 12v batteries to the top of stage 4 and 5!

[T-Bob]

This was the quote I got from the guys who do the EWS one a while back when I was looking to get a system for a client who does various events in the UK. It's a rough price plus the extras (tax, software subscription, additional extras). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Edge_Design]

Thanks hubbers (and timing marshalls) for clarifying most of the timing issues (and plus points). Edge design, there is one massive point I think you have missed. We can't use any XC/marathon event timing system as those are lap based timing systems. Just one start gate and one end gate at the most. So very easy to buy and manage!

 

Enduro uses at least 4 start and 4 end systems (sometimes up to 6 depending on how many stages). So if we were to use any XC event system then we would have to buy at least 4 of those complete systems and then also lug those 12v car batteries around to  power them. Think about the cost of that...

 

There is of course active RFID (the range of the watches is a few meters so you don't have to tag directly) and we could implement that . Of course to do so we'd have to put our entry fees up to R1500 like all other enduro events in the world but I don't think our racers would enjoy that so much.

 

Also, your budget and income predictions are woefully incorrect. The committee don't make ANY money from hosting these events (hence why we are so angry when people think we do). Here are just a few (and these are a lot bigger than you think) of the costs that went into Jonkers race. Walkie Talkies, Medics,Photographer,EWS event license,Safety Officer,CSA Calendar Listing Fee,Commissaire,Car guards,Toilet rental,Security,Additional security,Stellies Municipality permit,Land access MTO,Staff meals,Videographer,Fire Extinguisher Rental ,Overflow Parking.

 

If you really want to improve the systems and races please come and help volunteer or join the committee.

 

I wrote a page about why we developed our timing system and why strava sucks and a few other important points if you'd like to know more

 

Thanks for the response...

 

Just to clarify - I'm not knocking anything, you guys put on an awesome series of events and I will definitely be back again next year.

 

If my response is not taken as intended as some constructive criticism/feedback from a regular rider then I guess I have to apologise. People seem to be very insulted and defensive about it. I have made it clear I am not qualified on any of this stuff but it just "feels" like there might be a better alternative out there at a reasonable price (I'm perfectly happy to be wrong about this!).

 

You guys should be taking some money home for carrying the effort/risk of organising it so that is a separate problem.

[Dan Dob]

Yeah, we get a bit defensive and angry cos we are so tired-we don't want to host races! We want to race races!

 

But to do that we had to get this enduro thing off the ground (EWC has had 2 successful years of hosting races BTW). We are over the constructive criticism phase-we need solutions so if people can come to us with those rather than just the problems then that would be fantastic.

 

looking forward to 2020 but don't expect any big changes. Just slow improvement and hopefully less grumpy organisers

[Hairy]

Thanks hubbers (and timing marshalls) for clarifying most of the timing issues (and plus points). Edge design, there is one massive point I think you have missed. We can't use any XC/marathon event timing system as those are lap based timing systems. Just one start gate and one end gate at the most. So very easy to buy and manage!

 

Enduro uses at least 4 start and 4 end systems (sometimes up to 6 depending on how many stages). So if we were to use any XC event system then we would have to buy at least 4 of those complete systems and then also lug those 12v car batteries around to  power them. Think about the cost of that...

 

There is of course active RFID (the range of the watches is a few meters so you don't have to tag directly) and we could implement that . Of course to do so we'd have to put our entry fees up to R1500 like all other enduro events in the world but I don't think our racers would enjoy that so much.

 

Also, your budget and income predictions are woefully incorrect. The committee don't make ANY money from hosting these events (hence why we are so angry when people think we do). Here are just a few (and these are a lot bigger than you think) of the costs that went into Jonkers race. Walkie Talkies, Medics,Photographer,EWS event license,Safety Officer,CSA Calendar Listing Fee,Commissaire,Car guards,Toilet rental,Security,Additional security,Stellies Municipality permit,Land access MTO,Staff meals,Videographer,Fire Extinguisher Rental ,Overflow Parking.

 

If you really want to improve the systems and races please come and help volunteer or join the committee.

 

I wrote a page about why we developed our timing system and why strava sucks and a few other important points if you'd like to know more

Yo ... a little handy hint RE walkie talkies.

 

We had a spat of robberies in our area about a year ago, so we set up a residential lynch mob neighbourhood watch until we updated the security aspects.

 

This meant we had a mix of people working various shifts through the night so that we had a constant night time roaming patrol. 

 

We ended up using an app call Trello .... free to use and proved to be very effective as a "walkie-talkie"

 

Highlights of the app for me:

• no cost or user limit
• all conversations are stored, so if you missed something you can play it back
• you can add multimedia to your post, be it a pic or vid to assist other users on the app
• I created area and patrol maps, etc that were easily posted via this app and accessible to all users.
• exceptionally light on data
• no max. range issues

Maybe give it a try between a couple of friends and see if it can work for you.

 

#GoodWorkPuttingUpLekkerEventsThatIStillNeedToAttend!

[T-Bob]

 Here are just a few (and these are a lot bigger than you think) of the costs that went into Jonkers race. Walkie Talkies, Medics,Photographer,EWS event license,Safety Officer,CSA Calendar Listing Fee,Commissaire,Car guards,Toilet rental,Security,Additional security,Stellies Municipality permit,Land access MTO,Staff meals,Videographer,Fire Extinguisher Rental ,Overflow Parking.

 

Honestly having been involved in some reasonably big themed running events in Cape Town I'm surprised you got away so lightly with that list. You did damn well. 

[Dan Dob]

Tx man. We looked into but coverage in some parts of the mountain can be a problem so we use radios and then whatsapp as a backup

Yo ... a little handy hint RE walkie talkies.

 

We had a spat of robberies in our area about a year ago, so we set up a residential lynch mob neighbourhood watch until we updated the security aspects.

This meant we had a mix of people working various shifts through the night so that we had a constant night time roaming patrol. 

We ended up using an app call Trello .... free to use and proved to be very effective as a "walkie-talkie"

 

Highlights of the app for me:

• no cost or user limit
• all conversations are stored, so if you missed something you can play it back
• you can add multimedia to your post, be it a pic or vid to assist other users on the app
• I created area and patrol maps, etc that were easily posted via this app and accessible to all users.
• exceptionally light on data
• no max. range issues

Maybe give it a try between a couple of friends and see if it can work for you.

 

#GoodWorkPuttingUpLekkerEventsThatIStillNeedToAttend!

[NicoBoshoff]

to add to Jewboy's numbers, there are costs for medics, equipment hire (PA system and the person manning it) as well as various other blind costs such as venue hire, course tape / flags etc etc. 

 

I'll agree with Jewy on teh timing, too. It's far better IMO than the other systems that have been used beforehand. Doesn't need cell signal, doesn't need individual active tags and is already developed. Biggest delays in the start & end times are people who don't position their tags correctly. There are instances where a switch of the marshall's unit is required (like what apparently happened to Matt Lombardi at teh bottom of one stage) but that's rare. 

And then there's Rupert's appearance fee.