Motorists vs Cyclists.... again

[ChrisF]

1 hour ago, Spirog said:

We need to do whatever we can to improve our odds. Flashing lights, bright colours are things we can control. Dumb, distracted, aggressive drivers we can't change...

SMIDSY - (sorry mate I didn't see you) - is a real issue around the world - here's some science-  Intro3 understanding the SMIDSY | Science Of Being Seen

 

My most "interesting commute" was the morning I tried out a new front light.  Both the old and the new front light was STROBING away merily.

 

Mom drove from the side street .... barely slowed down before rolling over the stop street right in front of me !! Her head turned away from me, looking at the two todlers fighting on the back seat ... she had ZERO idea of what was hapening outside her car .... when she fully into the road she finally saw the flashing lights and stopped dead ....

 

I locked the rear wheel and drifted the bike at 45-degrees straight towards the now stationary car .... by the time the bike stopped I could not lift it upright as the wheels were just under the doorsills ...

 

Light "sorry" wave of the hand and she was off .....

[RobynE 🚵‍♀️]

3 hours ago, Mamil said:

I'm not sure about this bright colours - lights for sure, crucially important and I do like the reflective strips on my Ciovita socks and jacket but whether my jersey is black or red seems to me almost irrelevant. It's been debated many times on here on the hub but the "He was wearing dark clothing so I didn't see him" .... wears thin to my ears

In the shade or at dusk or dawn, if you’re wearing dark clothing on a dark bike - I’m highly less likely to see you than if you were wearing bright colours. 

Black is slimming but unfortunately that’s just a trick of the mind - it doesn’t make you slimmer or more avoidable 😗

It pretty much camouflages you against the backdrop of shade/tar/rock faces/grey clouds/rain. 

Lights - no brainer. Though that’s a silly way to say it as lights will probably give you a better chance of still having a brain. 

[Murrob]

Yeah, I’m with @Mamil in that I am not convinced the colour of your clothing makes much difference. I did notice a vast improvement in cars responding to my presence when I started riding with  Garmin varia’s front and rear. The flashing lights definitely help to pull a motorists brain out of whatever distraction/non threat identification brain loop they might be in. But I still have cases where regardless of the lights people turn in front of me. I put this down mostly to people not realising how fast you can actually move on a bike, and the fact the brain does not communicate to the conscious mind quickly enough, which seems to differ for people based on potential consequences of getting it wrong, we are self serving creatures after all, if you turn in front of truck you die, other car -tough day/maybe die, motorcycle - tough day and finally cyclist/commuter- meh… also part of this is probably we get lumped into the commuter speeds when we are generally going much quicker

Doing a quick scan of the link that @Spirog shared, certainly from my perspective one needs to apply a bit a mental gymnastics to come to the conclusion that clothing does much, it kind of reads like - well after mandating bright colours the number of accidents didn’t increase, so therefore it’s effective. But I think that also talks to lights which we can all agree add value, in my mind the most value. Especially in low light conditions, where reflectors are certainly more valuable than colour. I would also agree that flashing should not be too bright for use in conjunction with a light to see with.  But anything to help pull the brains of motorists out of their cathartic drive home thoughts can’t be bad. The link does somewhat support my consequences theory. 

[RobynE 🚵‍♀️]

Then let’s tie black rags to 6m lengths of conduit on bakkies - it will draw as much attention to it as red rags do. 

🫤 

Of course brighter colours are more visible. I mean, they literally are. 

There’s a reason PPE isn’t black. 

There’s also a reason tactical teams wear black. 

 

 

[ChrisF]

14 minutes ago, RobynE 🚵‍♀️ said:

Then let’s tie black rags to 6m lengths of conduit on bakkies - it will draw as much attention to it as red rags do. 

🫤

Of course brighter colours are more visible. I mean, they literally are. 

There’s a reason PPE isn’t black. 

There’s also a reason tactical teams wear black. 

 

 

 

Your writing style sure is bringing a smile to my face.

 

 

And yes, I agree with you.

 

Then again .... people have this nack to believe what suits them ....

[Mamil]

Who believes the any of the recent fatalities would have different outcomes if the riders had been wearing.different clothing?

I would suggest that the emotional experience of having little control over how people in armoured vehicles respond to us on the road makes us.want to reach for any lever that looks.like it.might give us some sense of safety.

One of the worst close passes I had I was in a yellow stay wider shirt which the dude mocked when I enquired about his behaviour.

I have also read research that says that bright lumo kit unconsciously leads to you.being.classified as a road hazard, similar to a bollard.

Lights absolutely. don't leave home without.them. Radar, essential kit for sure. situational awareness and knowing when to own the road and when to get out.of the.way,  also crucial. Big yes to reflective strips at night. But I really don't think that, in terms of.clothing, anything other than perhaps a battery powered neon neglige over the Mamil moobs will make a jot.of.difference.

 

 

[Robbie Stewart]

I have had more than a few instances of so very nearly riding a jogger, runner, person ambulating per foot in his, her, they's mo3r on the Melkbos cycle path when in the pre-dawn darkness I ride my bike on that section, only to find at the absolute last moment (yes, moment, not second) that they are there. I am befuddled by the fact that they seem to think that being out in the inky blackness, with zero, boggerall, niks lights makes perfect sense. My experience to date is that until I literally smell their pre-brushed breath (well, maybe that's me) I was utterly unaware of their existence. Never once did it occur to me that they should've worn bright clothing. A light yes. A neon bib? No! 

[MORNE]

27 minutes ago, Robbie Stewart said:

I have had more than a few instances of so very nearly riding a jogger, runner, person ambulating per foot in his, her, they's mo3r on the Melkbos cycle path when in the pre-dawn darkness I ride my bike on that section, only to find at the absolute last moment (yes, moment, not second) that they are there. I am befuddled by the fact that they seem to think that being out in the inky blackness, with zero, boggerall, niks lights makes perfect sense. My experience to date is that until I literally smell their pre-brushed breath (well, maybe that's me) I was utterly unaware of their existence. Never once did it occur to me that they should've worn bright clothing. A light yes. A neon bib? No! 

During the covid early morning exercise  allowance days i used to sneak out an hour earlier and do a 60km loop around the northern suburbs before 6am. Different times, no cars, but i felt safer switching off the lights on my bike and riding in the pitch black, knowing i’m basically invisible to anyone from a relative distance. For some reason i still rode with a buff over my face for some self induced waterboarding - now that was admittedly really dumb. What a farce all that was👀

[RobynE 🚵‍♀️]

Some interesting comments. 

-

@MORNE , when you said you felt safer, do you mean from sticky/spiky hands, or vehicles? 

-

@Mamil I don’t know about you, but I tend to try and avoid road hazards like bollards, so if I’m seen as an enormous, moving bollard, I’ll take it. 

-

In general;

I don’t think anyone is speaking specifically about neon. 

But to say black is not more visible than bright colours (red, yellow, green, whatever) is scientifically flawed. 

Reflectors mean fokkolie without light reflecting off them. Relying on reflectors is like believing the green man at the traffic lights and just stepping off the pavement because green man says Yes, or a visually impaired person relying on a guide dog that’s off leash/not in a harness, because it’s a certified guide dog. 

I look like a beached whale in white or red or orange or whatever and I’d much rather clip in wearing black. But if I’m wearing a bright jersey and orange helmet, and have my lights on, I feel I’m giving myself the best chance to be seen by vehicles as I wheeze and gasp along. 

To be clear, I’m speaking about daytime riding which as far as I can see is proving to be the most dangerous when it comes to MVA if we look at the incidents we’re aware of. 

 

[RobynE 🚵‍♀️]

@Mamil before becoming a cyclist I found those Stay Wider shirts to be arrogant and obtuse - especially when the one you’re looking at is part of a 3-4 abreast situation. I get it now - the idea behind the shirts/gillets/jerseys/stickers. But I used to think, “check this **** who thinks he owns the road”. 

[MORNE]

9 hours ago, RobynE 🚵‍♀️ said:

Some interesting comments. 

-

@MORNE , when you said you felt safer, do you mean from sticky/spiky hands, or vehicles? 

 

As mentioned in the post, back then there were literally no cars on the road due to restrictions, so i felt safer being invisible to the sticky/spiky. Having been a victom of a bike jacking myself, and recalling how it happened back then…they saw me coming from a distance lol. Granted, that happened in clear daylight. 
Of course i wouldn't ride on the road, with cars, without lights. 

Edited August 15, 2025 by MORNE

[Prince Albert Cycles]

9 hours ago, RobynE 🚵‍♀️ said:

Some interesting comments. 

-

@MORNE , when you said you felt safer, do you mean from sticky/spiky hands, or vehicles? 

-

@Mamil I don’t know about you, but I tend to try and avoid road hazards like bollards, so if I’m seen as an enormous, moving bollard, I’ll take it. 

-

In general;

I don’t think anyone is speaking specifically about neon. 

But to say black is not more visible than bright colours (red, yellow, green, whatever) is scientifically flawed. 

Reflectors mean fokkolie without light reflecting off them. Relying on reflectors is like believing the green man at the traffic lights and just stepping off the pavement because green man says Yes, or a visually impaired person relying on a guide dog that’s off leash/not in a harness, because it’s a certified guide dog. 

I look like a beached whale in white or red or orange or whatever and I’d much rather clip in wearing black. But if I’m wearing a bright jersey and orange helmet, and have my lights on, I feel I’m giving myself the best chance to be seen by vehicles as I wheeze and gasp along. 

To be clear, I’m speaking about daytime riding which as far as I can see is proving to be the most dangerous when it comes to MVA if we look at the incidents we’re aware of. 

 

Yes . Massive difference between personal opinions based on preferences and results from scientific research.  I am taking my chances with science .

[Mamil]

18 hours ago, Shebeen said:

clearly the message isn't getting through then.

 

it's fine eventually Rapha and Le Col and Pas Normal will bring out stuff that looks fashionable and can be seen by motorists. Until then, look cool when you get taken out.

What a fatuous and frankly offensive comment. If I am ever "taken out" it won't age well at all - or perhaps you will say "Ah well you see, he was wearing a dark blue jersey you see, no wonder"

This is the problem with the "you must wear bright clothing" line. We have 3 people killed on bikes in the last fortnight and we are talking about what we wear as if it's a significant variable. 

Noone ever changed anyone's mind on an internet forum.

As a last comment before I check out of this thread, every near miss I've ever had has been because the driver wasn't even looking at road at all (cell phone, makeup in rear view mirror, veering into cycle lane to avoid stopping behind a car that was turning right) or saw me and simply didn't recognise that I am a human being not a piece of road furniture or an obstacle to be got past with minimal delay.

What jersey I put on before the ride would have made no difference at all.

 

 

Edited August 15, 2025 by Mamil

[Mook]

11 hours ago, Mamil said:

Radar, essential kit for sure. situational awareness and knowing when to own the road and when to get out.of the.way,  also crucial. 

 

 

While I realize that my personal sentiments around Varia would get me cancelled, shot at, ridiculed, etc, my analytical brain tries to replay all cycling related incidents. To the radar disciples, the following questions/statements:

1) Could you share statistical data with me of the ratio of Varia's used in all incidents. Does proof exist that those hit by vehicles used Varia OR not? Could we potentially get to a conclusion that those hit by vehicles did not have radar fitted to their bikes?

2) The typical driver that would hit a cyclist could not be bothered if you have patriot missiles fitted to your bike. Radar is of "use" to the cyclist only. Varia is marketed as an awareness/warning tool, not a safety device, BUT it warns the cyclist ONLY.

3) The amount of cyclists hit inside the yellow road shoulder could potentially be a damning testament to radar, IF these riders were hit despite having the luxury of radar.

I have many buddies with Varia, many without. I have cycled in many a group with 30-50% using radar, AND it's a disaster with bleeping radars. Every time 1 Varia goes off, everybody goes into emergency preparedness mode with the resultant scares of cyclists taking out each other in their scurry to avoid whatever this thing is approaching from behind.

So, here's my take. If riding solo radar could be a useful warning tool to the cyclist, yet providing a false sense of safety under many conditions. Bright clothing, reflectors and lights remain your best defense mechanisms against distracted drivers.

Visibility remains the ultimate goal.

PS: You don't have to agree with me, but please keep it civil 🤙

[Mamil]

2 minutes ago, Mook said:

While I realize that my personal sentiments around Varia would get me cancelled, shot at, ridiculed, etc, my analytical brain tries to replay all cycling related incidents. To the radar disciples, the following questions/statements:

1) Could you share statistical data with me of the ratio of Varia's used in all incidents. Does proof exist that those hit by vehicles used Varia OR not? Could we potentially get to a conclusion that those hit by vehicles did not have radar fitted to their bikes?

2) The typical driver that would hit a cyclist could not be bothered if you have patriot missiles fitted to your bike. Radar is of "use" to the cyclist only. Varia is marketed as an awareness/warning tool, not a safety device, BUT it warns the cyclist ONLY.

3) The amount of cyclists hit inside the yellow road shoulder could potentially be a damning testament to radar, IF these riders were hit despite having the luxury of radar.

I have many buddies with Varia, many without. I have cycled in many a group with 30-50% using radar, AND it's a disaster with bleeping radars. Every time 1 Varia goes off, everybody goes into emergency preparedness mode with the resultant scares of cyclists taking out each other in their scurry to avoid whatever this thing is approaching from behind.

So, here's my take. If riding solo radar could be a useful warning tool to the cyclist, yet providing a false sense of safety under many conditions. Bright clothing, reflectors and lights remain your best defense mechanisms against distracted drivers.

Visibility remains the ultimate goal.

PS: You don't have to agree with me, but please keep it civil 🤙

I don't think it makes a substantial improvement over non radar lights. Except maybe the fact that it changes it's flash pattern as a car approaches which possibly improves visibility a little.

The biggest thing I like about the radar is knowing that there is a car coming up behind me and how far away it is. It doesn't change what I do, except that on quieter roads with less traffic, as a car approaches, I extend my hand and wave it to signal that I need space.

Also knowing the relative speed and number of vehicles approaching does I feel improve my situational awareness.

Another thing it does change in my behaviour - in situations like the curves through bantry bay, if I radar senses a car, I signal and move into the middle of the road to prevent being cut off by an unskiled driver drifting inwards towards the apex of the corner.

No idea about the stats though.

[Robbie Stewart]

I've been passed by riders using radar and flashing lights. I've seen those lights go hyper when a car approaches. No chance of the driver not noticing. As to whether the driver reacts to the light is another matter altogether.