Motorists vs Cyclists.... again

[Headshot]

On 8/2/2025 at 1:17 PM, Da Vinci said:

Any number of things to someone who wasn’t there.

In my mind TBone means they hit the side of the vehicle.

The picture of the bus has the front window smashed.

So much open to interpretation but at the end of the some one is dead and many people lives are affected in many ways. 
 

 

There is very little open to interpretation actually.

1. Bicycles are often far slower than cars and motorbikes down Chappies and even if they were going fast, what is the maximum speed  - probably 60km/h on that rough surface, depending on wind direction.  

2.The damage to the bus appears to have been to the front windscreen. That says the bus was still busy turning when it hit the riders, who incidentally had right of way down the lane they were in. In other words, the bus gave the riders very little if any chance to avoid the collision.

3. A  tour bus making a turn like that on a road full of runners cyclists and cars is always fraught with danger and required extra care from the driver. The outcome seems to indicate the care/skill wasn't there.

4. While I am sure the driver didn't set out to do this, the facts show he was negligent and and such could be sued civilly, prosecuted for culpable homicide and possibly lose his job.

[cadenceblur]

12 minutes ago, Headshot said:

There is very little open to interpretation actually.

1. Bicycles are often far slower than cars and motorbikes down Chappies and even if they were going fast, what is the maximum speed  - probably 60km/h on that rough surface, depending on wind direction.  

2.The damage to the bus appears to have been to the front windscreen. That says the bus was still busy turning when it hit the riders, who incidentally had right of way down the lane they were in. In other words, the bus gave the riders very little if any chance to avoid the collision.

3. A  tour bus making a turn like that on a road full of runners cyclists and cars is always fraught with danger and required extra care from the driver. The outcome seems to indicate the care/skill wasn't there.

4. While I am sure the driver didn't set out to do this, the facts show he was negligent and and such could be sued civilly, prosecuted for culpable homicide and possibly lose his job.

100% correct.

[Da Vinci]

Out of respect to the persons affected I don’t want to debate this. But I do feel very strongly about this.:

1. Bicycles are often far slower than cars and motorbikes down Chappies and even if they were going fast, what is the maximum speed  - probably 60km/h on that rough surface, depending on wind direction.  
 

Maximum speed limit on that road is 40kms an hour. 
My car can do 120km + an hour down Ou Kaapseweg - doesn’t mean I should drive that speed because given the condition and traffic on that road it would not be safe. 
 

Yes the driver is guilty  - manslaughter for sure - .  But he took a legal turn, IF he turned across the  broken barrier line in a legal right hand turn and did not physically see the cyclists descending towards him. 
 

There is also the chance he crossed the solid barrier line before the turn. That is illegal. Under our judicial system - probably culpable homicide - many would like to argue murder 

Were the cyclists going faster than the speed limit, were they travelling at a prudent speed, considering the conditions and hazards (runners, vehicles, other cyclists) on that road on such a gorgeous Saturday morning?

I wasn’t there, I don’t know if you were, only the witnesses would be able to piece this together for the authorities.

The trauma is going to be relived on all sides for years to come. Emotions are going to heightened, hatred trenches are going to deepen. 
im going to be on a bus on Chapmans peak on Sunday - same company- does that automatically make my colleague a murderous despot…. Because “ALL” bus drivers must be, and they are deliberate and hate cyclists?

if the driver is convicted he will lose his lively hood. - some will argue; small price considering someone lost their life- and that is true.

 

Edited August 5, 2025 by Da Vinci

[ChrisF]

11 minutes ago, Da Vinci said:

....

There is also the chance he crossed the solid barrier line before the turn. That is illegal. Under our judicial system - probably culpable homicide - many would like to argue murder 

...

 

 

Some of the photos showed the bus was at the broken lines.  Just one of so many factors accounted for.

 

"We" can debate so so many factors:

- turning right, with oncoming traffic

- was the oncoming traffic visible

- was the oncoming traffic exceeding the speed limit ( @Zebra can confirm the correct speed limit for this section)

- Only a dash-cam will show the tun-and-stop-and-impact to begin to understand who could have done what to escape injury.  Such dash cam could provide some understanding as to some of the previous thoughts as well ...

 

NONE of this matters now !!

 

A loved one is never coming home.

 

That driver will have legal issues for a long while still ... never mind the nightmares

 

 

This whole past week for cycling just SUCKS !!  And this as the season is changing and we all try to get active again and ready for the next season of rides and races ..... please be safe out there Hubbers, be it in your vehicle or on two wheels.

[Zebra]

9 minutes ago, ChrisF said:

- was the oncoming traffic exceeding the speed limit ( @Zebra can confirm the correct speed limit for this section)

The speed limit for that section is 40km/h.

Since the hospitalized chap is both a customer, an acquaintance AND I paddled semi-competitively alongside him for over 10 years, I pass no judgment - I do not think I have observed that speed (limit) on a bicycle in a long, long time, although more lately than when I was younger. It is really the LOWER portions that are super f-a-s-t, but the mid/upper portions you would need to be 'on your brakes' to maintain 40km/h.

Sadly, the chap that passed was also known to me, belongs to my HB Gym, etc, just occasional greetings to each other, but sad that - just like that - he is deceased. Terrible.

[ChrisF]

4 minutes ago, Zebra said:

The speed limit for that section is 40km/h.

Since the hospitalized chap is both a customer, an acquaintance AND I paddled semi-competitively alongside him for over 10 years, I pass no judgment - I do not think I have observed that speed (limit) on a bicycle in a long, long time, although more lately than when I was younger. It is really the LOWER portions that are super f-a-s-t, but the mid/upper portions you would need to be 'on your brakes' to maintain 40km/h.

Sadly, the chap that passed was also known to me, belongs to my HB Gym, etc, just occasional greetings to each other, but sad that - just like that - he is deceased. Terrible.

 

Chris our thoughts with you and their family in this terrible time.

[Andreas_187]

Unfortunately all the disgusting comments from members of the public on social media are fueled from our collective behaviour on the roads... and they are 100% correct. We are HORRIBLE road users.

Cyclists are riding 2 or 3 abreast nearly every morning between Sea Point and Camps Bay. Unbelievably they don't even look behind for their own safety. The 3 abreast continues all the way up to Suikerbossie. When it gets to Chappies we're now 4 abreast. We don't stop at Stop streets or traffic lights. When a car hoots it's then full on shouting and swearing. We are our own worst enemy.

 

[Mamil]

1 hour ago, Andreas_187 said:

Unfortunately all the disgusting comments from members of the public on social media are fueled from our collective behaviour on the roads... and they are 100% correct. We are HORRIBLE road users.

Cyclists are riding 2 or 3 abreast nearly every morning between Sea Point and Camps Bay. Unbelievably they don't even look behind for their own safety. The 3 abreast continues all the way up to Suikerbossie. When it gets to Chappies we're now 4 abreast. We don't stop at Stop streets or traffic lights. When a car hoots it's then full on shouting and swearing. We are our own worst enemy.

 

You can leave me out of that 'we' thanks.

[Andreas_187]

6 minutes ago, Mamil said:

You can leave me out of that 'we' thanks.

I said, 'as a collective'.

 

[Mamil]

1 minute ago, Andreas_187 said:

I said, 'as a collective'.

 

Ya and I'm not part of that collective

[cadenceblur]

1 hour ago, Andreas_187 said:

Unfortunately all the disgusting comments from members of the public on social media are fueled from our collective behaviour on the roads... and they are 100% correct. We are HORRIBLE road users.

Cyclists are riding 2 or 3 abreast nearly every morning between Sea Point and Camps Bay. Unbelievably they don't even look behind for their own safety. The 3 abreast continues all the way up to Suikerbossie. When it gets to Chappies we're now 4 abreast. We don't stop at Stop streets or traffic lights. When a car hoots it's then full on shouting and swearing. We are our own worst enemy.

 

Let’s not tar and feather all, many of us try to improve relations and also ride defensively, or at appropriate speeds for the area we find ourselves in..perhaps call out the collective that you are referring to if it’s repeated behaviour?

[Andreas_187]

On any given day thie scenario I wrote about exists and that is why there is such a negative attitude towards cyclists. Don't get defensive, I didn't single anyone out. 

I'm not talking about anyone specific, if you ride that route often you can see for yourself 

[TheAntoine1]

2 hours ago, Andreas_187 said:

On any given day thie scenario I wrote about exists and that is why there is such a negative attitude towards cyclists. Don't get defensive, I didn't single anyone out. 

I'm not talking about anyone specific, if you ride that route often you can see for yourself 

Fully agree. Ive been a lone voice thru the years saying we are our worst enemy on the roads. Two and three abreast is normal on a Saturday / Sunday morning on the main road in kalk bay, Muizenberg area. Gets even worse before Argus. “Hey we are training for the Argus so we are therefore special.” 

[TheAntoine1]

2 hours ago, Andreas_187 said:

I said, 'as a collective'.

 

It’s the metric. You can be out - no problem. 

[Spookie]

I was not there, so cannot say what exactly happened. But looking at the photos and having ridden past where it happened on Saturday - I highly doubt they were going extremely fast. The road levels out there into an almost false flat (1/2%) which would likely have tempered their speed a bit (wasn’t on a steep descent section). Don’t think there was much wind that day, but what there was would likely have been a slight NW (headwind). Looking at where it happened, there should have been at least 100m of sight for the bus before turning. The damage was the RHS of the bus windscreen indicating it had possibly just started turning in. I’m sure there are fancy algorithms and plenty of witnesses to piece it together at some point. However none of this changes the outcome either way 😥 sh*tty week all around. 

[wolver]

14 hours ago, Andreas_187 said:

Unfortunately all the disgusting comments from members of the public on social media are fueled from our collective behaviour on the roads... and they are 100% correct. We are HORRIBLE road users.

Cyclists are riding 2 or 3 abreast nearly every morning between Sea Point and Camps Bay. Unbelievably they don't even look behind for their own safety. The 3 abreast continues all the way up to Suikerbossie. When it gets to Chappies we're now 4 abreast. We don't stop at Stop streets or traffic lights. When a car hoots it's then full on shouting and swearing. We are our own worst enemy.

 

By "we" you mean people right? People are c@#*$... some ride bikes, some drive cars.