Review: Titan Racing Cypher RS Carbon Ultimate

[TyronLab]

24 minutes ago, Jewbacca said:

What do I know though. I have 2 x boutique steel clown bikes and a girls road bike. 

This statement is useless without pictures...

[Jewbacca]

21 hours ago, dasilvarsa said:

https://www.bikeperfect.com/features/best-xc-mountain-bikes

On this list is a Merida, a Giant  and a Vitus. 

Merida are the same brand stable as TR in SA and IMHO not better bikes.

Giant own a large portion of the market but are 'The People's bikes' and Vitus....... 

Vitus are bang for buck reliable bikes pretty much in the same mould as TR. I'm not sure where else one buys them other than Wiggle/CRC?

Again, I have no real skin in this fight, but I don't see why Vitus would be seen as a premium brand at all. I would consider them 'cheap'.

Merida bikes are also ugly as sin. Probably the only 'popular' bike brand that makes uglier bikes than Cannondale..... 🙊

Out of the Pyga stable, the MOBU has pretty average geometry and is more difficult to get hold of than Gypsy tears. So as a Saffa one proudly says 'Buy a MOBU, it's the best' but there is a fair amount of blinkered loyalty there.

The reality is that public perception and market history make up a lot of perceived value in a lot of different consumer fields. Some products, like All Gold tomato sauce, are genuinely the best in class but still costs considerably less than Heinz.

Other products are just accepted as 'better' because traditionally they were, or your dad said they were in 1986.

My kid won't eat green sweets because his granny doesn't like them. We are all influenced into a way of thinking through various channels from a young age. Most of us don't even realise

[BaGearA]

I love semantics 

[dasilvarsa]

1 hour ago, Jewbacca said:

On this list is a Merida, a Giant  and a Vitus. 

Merida are the same brand stable as TR in SA and IMHO not better bikes.

Giant own a large portion of the market but are 'The People's bikes' and Vitus....... 

Vitus are bang for buck reliable bikes pretty much in the same mould as TR. I'm not sure where else one buys them other than Wiggle/CRC?

Again, I have no real skin in this fight, but I don't see why Vitus would be seen as a premium brand at all. I would consider them 'cheap'.

Merida bikes are also ugly as sin. Probably the only 'popular' bike brand that makes uglier bikes than Cannondale..... 🙊

Out of the Pyga stable, the MOBU has pretty average geometry and is more difficult to get hold of than Gypsy tears. So as a Saffa one proudly says 'Buy a MOBU, it's the best' but there is a fair amount of blinkered loyalty there.

The reality is that public perception and market history make up a lot of perceived value in a lot of different consumer fields. Some products, like All Gold tomato sauce, are genuinely the best in class but still costs considerably less than Heinz.

Other products are just accepted as 'better' because traditionally they were, or your dad said they were in 1986.

My kid won't eat green sweets because his granny doesn't like them. We are all influenced into a way of thinking through various channels from a young age. Most of us don't even realise

Do You Work for Titan ?

[ChrisF]

1 minute ago, dasilvarsa said:

Do You Work for Titan ?

 

He is on the wrong side of the Boerewors curtain .... 

[woodrow]

I have been a member of the Bike Hub, for many years, but this is the first time that I am posting anything on any of the forums.

It has been an interesting exercise reading all of the posts on this forum, and I want to share my own personal experience as an incredibly satisfied owner of a Titan product. My assessment of the product offering, is completely objective, and I am not sharing this post as an advertising plug for Titan.

I previously owned a carbon Spez Marathon Epic, which was unfortunately stolen. Thankfully the bike was insured and the insurance company was prepared to replace the bike. I specifically wanted to buy a new bike with a warranty on the frame, as opposed to buying something which was pre-owned. I saw a carbon Titan RS Cypher Pro being advertised by a bike shop, at a very competitive price. As was not familiar with the Titan brand at the time, and and only knew that they owned a large segment of the kids market, I decided that I needed to do a lot of homework on the brand. I looked at a variety of articles relating to the research and development of the bike and carefully considered the build quality and the component mix of the specific bike, in comparison to other bikes on offer.  I also read as many independent reviews of the bike as I could get my hands on, and was most impressed with the component mix at the price point at which it was being offered, however, comparison to other models of other bike manufacturers. I had a limited amount of money available in terms of the insurance claim, and I opted to purchase the Titan product, which at the time I purchased it during July 2020 had a SRAM GX group set, a SRAM Ultimate front fork and rear shock, SRAM Level TL brakes and in-house Titan Racing Carbon hoops. The bike also came with a carbon flat bar as well as a carbon seat post and a Fizik saddle, which I immediately changed, as it was, not to my liking. I was very impressed with the quality component mix on the bike as it provided pretty good bang for my buck. I added a dropper post and I was ready to go.

The bike has treated me wonderfully well and I have enjoyed many hundreds of hours of riding pleasure, without any issue. I also had several falls due to my lack of talent The bike is responsive and sure-footed, instils confidence when things get a bit rowdy on the trail and I am incredibly happy with my purchase.

The frame has recently been replaced in terms of the warranty due to a hairline crack in the seat post and dealing with Titan has been an absolute pleasure. No questions were asked when the bike was returned for inspection and 2 days after it was sent to Titan, I received notification from Carlo, whom I have dealt with before, when purchasing various Titan merchandise, that the frame would be replaced under warranty. I have now received a brand-new frame and bike has been built up with existing components. The new matt black and red frame which I received is a showstopper, and is even more beautiful than the glossy red frame which was initially supplied. Chris Nixon and his wonderful team at the Bike Park at the Constantia Uitsig must be commended on the way in which the bike turned out. This, by the way is also not a plug for my LBS.

The final point which I wish to make is that due to the manner in which I as a Titan owner had been treated, and the enjoyment which I have received from the product, has resulted  in the developing complete brand loyalty. My experience with this product has been nothing other than positive, and I am fortunate to have incredible relationship with my LBS, who constantly go out of their way to service my needs.

It is interesting to read that certain of the posts critical of the price of the Cypher Ultimate and it is apparent for a resale value. I did not buy my bike for the purposes of selling it, as I can ill afford to replace it, as it now retails for approximately R 20 000.00 more than when I purchased it. Although the latest model as the SRAM AXS group set and the Reynolds carbon hoops. I cannot place the value of enjoyment which I am experiencing with this product, and the fantastic free therapy which I get every time I hit the trails.

I will be riding my "new" beast for the first time tomorrow, and cannot wait to get back into the saddle.

Thanks.

 

 

[Patrice gautier]

Got my Titan cypher ultimate today.

Did everything i needed to do to it to eg comfortable. 

Will still tweek as i ride.

The bike out the box in a medium  came in at 11.06kg.

I removed the standard  grips and replaced then, also changed a few thing that wher on the bike. 

Added  my xtr pedals and 2 x bottle cage and tubeless conversion. 

Bike is ride ready at 11.06 kg to ride Tomorrow 

 

Tomorrow  we ride

[Danger Dassie]

On 1/20/2023 at 2:14 PM, floatfox said:

Problem is...its a titan, whatever you buy it for today you will sell it at a huge loss tomorrow as their high end bikes have no resale value. And a 5 year warranty where most other brands have a lifetime warranty..too many of their older carbon frames have had issues in the past...sorry, but I will pass..

I’ll call you out on this and say BS. Cyphers generally aren’t available for sale secondhand, where they are they sell very well. The Switch is a case point, hell some models have sold at their origin retail. 
The five year frame warranty is transferable between buyers, which most other brands don’t do. Most other brand don’t have transferable warranty’s at all, many also don’t have a lifetime warranty without specific exclusions or at a premium.

Curious as to what older carbon frames have had issues and what those issues were? 

On 1/23/2023 at 11:47 AM, MTBRIDER1234 said:

To be honest, it isn't easy to become a premium brand out of SA, but it is doable. Look at PYGA and morewood bikes. Some of the best in the game and they are available in quite a few countries worldwide. They are an example of how a local business should create an image for itself and expand into the foreign market.

Interestingly TR’s lead designer actually worked for Pyga over a good few years and worked out of the cSixx office at the time. 
Titan is also available in quite a few countries, eight or nine as I last recall. 
Both Titan Racing and Pyga are good examples of a local business can be successful, both have different approaches. Pyga have positioned themselves as a boutique brand and TR are well positioned as broad based value brand.

[Jewbacca]

11 hours ago, dasilvarsa said:

Do You Work for Titan ?

I've mentioned a number of times I do not, also a number of times that I do not.

None of my posts have suggested they ARE a 'premium brand'. My question to you and others what constituted one. 

You replied with a link which had a Merida, a Giant and a Vitus in.... So I feel I am vindicated in suggesting the 'premium brand' model is based on perception and there is no real baseline other than that. 

You obviously don't like the brand as you always pop up on these threads and bash it, which is cool, you do you, but there is no harm is looking at it from a different point of view.

A Vitus... About as premium as Jive Soda

[WT]

13 hours ago, Jewbacca said:

On this list is a Merida, a Giant  and a Vitus. 

Merida are the same brand stable as TR in SA and IMHO not better bikes.

Giant own a large portion of the market but are 'The People's bikes' and Vitus....... 

Vitus are bang for buck reliable bikes pretty much in the same mould as TR. I'm not sure where else one buys them other than Wiggle/CRC?

Again, I have no real skin in this fight, but I don't see why Vitus would be seen as a premium brand at all. I would consider them 'cheap'.

Merida bikes are also ugly as sin. Probably the only 'popular' bike brand that makes uglier bikes than Cannondale..... 🙊

Out of the Pyga stable, the MOBU has pretty average geometry and is more difficult to get hold of than Gypsy tears. So as a Saffa one proudly says 'Buy a MOBU, it's the best' but there is a fair amount of blinkered loyalty there.

The reality is that public perception and market history make up a lot of perceived value in a lot of different consumer fields. Some products, like All Gold tomato sauce, are genuinely the best in class but still costs considerably less than Heinz.

Other products are just accepted as 'better' because traditionally they were, or your dad said they were in 1986.

My kid won't eat green sweets because his granny doesn't like them. We are all influenced into a way of thinking through various channels from a young age. Most of us don't even realise

Perhaps a manufacturer's range of bikes also changes our perception of whether they are a premuim brand?

Brands like Vitus and Merida build a much larger range of mountain bikes that include trail en enduro bikes.

From what I can see TR only really focuses on XC with their MTBs.

If only TR would start building some trail and enduro bikes... I bet they would make a lot of SA gravity riders' wallets very happy and probably bolster their reputation as well😁 

[Jewbacca]

16 minutes ago, WT said:

Perhaps a manufacturer's range of bikes also changes our perception of whether they are a premuim brand?

Brands like Vitus and Merida build a much larger range of mountain bikes that include trail en enduro bikes.

From what I can see TR only really focuses on XC with their MTBs.

If only TR would start building some trail and enduro bikes... I bet they would make a lot of SA gravity riders' wallets very happy and probably bolster their reputation as well😁 

I think here in lies the rub. Historically in SA, the most sold bike models slot into our massive XCM/Stage racing scene.

It makes sense that a homegrown SA company focusses on the section of the market that keeps it's bottom line in the black.

The lead designer at TR used to design bikes for Pyga, so he has some decent experience in the gravity/enduro scene.

Weirdly, the Enduro market in SA is very vocal on BikeHub, but not massive spenders in the market as a whole. I've seen many gravity companies fail in SA. Importers simply don't move the numbers needed to make it worthwhile. 

Options are rad for those in the market, but when buying new, the very image conscious Enduro crowd are more likely to buy a random high pivot boutique bike from a remote area in BC than they are a practical bike with local service because they can, it looks cooler and it was on Pink Bike. 

Pyga have shored up a big portion of the market too, so there isn't a huge scope to actually make and sell big numbers, which invariably raises production costs and prices them 'above threshold' so people like Dasilarsa can comment 'Costs as much as a Merida and is still a TITAN!' 😝

 

[WT]

5 minutes ago, Jewbacca said:

I think here in lies the rub. Historically in SA, the most sold bike models slot into our massive XCM/Stage racing scene.

It makes sense that a homegrown SA company focusses on the section of the market that keeps it's bottom line in the black.

The lead designer at TR used to design bikes for Pyga, so he has some decent experience in the gravity/enduro scene.

Weirdly, the Enduro market in SA is very vocal on BikeHub, but not massive spenders in the market as a whole. I've seen many gravity companies fail in SA. Importers simply don't move the numbers needed to make it worthwhile. 

Options are rad for those in the market, but when buying new, the very image conscious Enduro crowd are more likely to buy a random high pivot boutique bike from a remote area in BC than they are a practical bike with local service because they can, it looks cooler and it was on Pink Bike. 

Pyga have shored up a big portion of the market too, so there isn't a huge scope to actually make and sell big numbers, which invariably raises production costs and prices them 'above threshold' so people like Dasilarsa can comment 'Costs as much as a Merida and is still a TITAN!' 😝

 

Definitely makes sense that most of the mountain bike business in SA is in the XCM/Stage racing scene. If I were TR racing I would most probably do the same.

From a business standpoint I completely get focusing your efforts on the bikes that will make you money. 

I really was just pondering along on the question of "what makes a premium brand".

There has definitely been some growth in the enduro scene... Look at places like Wolwespruit now paying for someone from the Trails crew (The guys that helped build the Darkfest stuff for those who don't know) to keep building more flow lines and big jumps. Places like Hellsend are fairly new. All of this is providing people with options to start trying a previously "underground" discipline much more easily and often find that they need something more than a normal XC bike if they want to progress. 

I agree that Pyga do have a big market portion historically but it does seem that lately they are getting a little "boutique" with their prices. At R80k for a carbon frame, you could get something from almost any other premium brand as well. It seems like TREK have taken a lot of market share lately. I reckon that is simply because their bikes are a lot cheaper (And have good support too). Are they better? Probably not... However the amount of TREK bikes around makes me think that the average NEW rider wants a bike they can see in the shop, grab and buy right there, and that is where I think a company like TR could fill a gap. At least that has been my observation in the last few months. 

I ride a Pyga myself and I absolutely love it, but if I needed to buy a new bike now... Probably would end up going with something else.

But these are probably just the ramblings of someone who likes bikes too much😅

[PhilipV]

On 1/23/2023 at 8:27 PM, dasilvarsa said:

https://www.bikeperfect.com/features/best-xc-mountain-bikes

Okay I'll bite:
Santa can be considered premium, but only because of high cost and limited production coupled to only being available in a few bike shops makes them seem premium. 

Scott, Merida, Giant, Cannondale, and Specialized are about as premium as a Toyota Hilux. And as common. I'm saying this as a Scott owner. Nothing premium about my bike. 

Vitus and  YT are mail order bikes. That is like saying you get better service at Outsurance while holding the line for thirty minutes after someone drove into you. At least you saved some money hey?

Like Jewbacca wrote. "Premium" is a mindset in the consumer, and it is influenced by marketing. But you pay for that, wether it translates to a better ride or peace of mind is debatable. But we are all emotional about bikes, so rationality is put aside. 

[TheoG]

14 minutes ago, PhilipV said:

Okay I'll bite:
Santa can be considered premium, but only because of high cost and limited production coupled to only being available in a few bike shops makes them seem premium. 

Scott, Merida, Giant, Cannondale, and Specialized are about as premium as a Toyota Hilux. And as common. I'm saying this as a Scott owner. Nothing premium about my bike. 

Vitus and  YT are mail order bikes. That is like saying you get better service at Outsurance while holding the line for thirty minutes after someone drove into you. At least you saved some money hey?

Like Jewbacca wrote. "Premium" is a mindset in the consumer, and it is influenced by marketing. But you pay for that, wether it translates to a better ride or peace of mind is debatable. But we are all emotional about bikes, so rationality is put aside. 

I agree with you in principle.

Perception work both ways, can be good or bad.  Unfortunately too many things are based on perception.

Each of us look at bikes differently and compare different features to make up our minds on what bike we like or want to buy.

A proper set of objective things to compare would be awesome but we will for sure not all agree on what should be included on that list.

In the end make up your own mind based on your own reference and ride what you like and like what you ride ....

Eish, I'm being very philosophical today ... 🤪🙈.

Edited January 25, 2023 by TheoG

[Jewbacca]

2 hours ago, WT said:

Definitely makes sense that most of the mountain bike business in SA is in the XCM/Stage racing scene. If I were TR racing I would most probably do the same.

From a business standpoint I completely get focusing your efforts on the bikes that will make you money. 

I really was just pondering along on the question of "what makes a premium brand".

There has definitely been some growth in the enduro scene... Look at places like Wolwespruit now paying for someone from the Trails crew (The guys that helped build the Darkfest stuff for those who don't know) to keep building more flow lines and big jumps. Places like Hellsend are fairly new. All of this is providing people with options to start trying a previously "underground" discipline much more easily and often find that they need something more than a normal XC bike if they want to progress. 

I agree that Pyga do have a big market portion historically but it does seem that lately they are getting a little "boutique" with their prices. At R80k for a carbon frame, you could get something from almost any other premium brand as well. It seems like TREK have taken a lot of market share lately. I reckon that is simply because their bikes are a lot cheaper (And have good support too). Are they better? Probably not... However the amount of TREK bikes around makes me think that the average NEW rider wants a bike they can see in the shop, grab and buy right there, and that is where I think a company like TR could fill a gap. At least that has been my observation in the last few months. 

I ride a Pyga myself and I absolutely love it, but if I needed to buy a new bike now... Probably would end up going with something else.

But these are probably just the ramblings of someone who likes bikes too much😅

With Pyga, their production costs are really high. Local welders, local carbon layup, in house staff and setup.

They don't sell huge volume either.

I think one of the telling things is the amount of old model enduro bikes seen at Enduros.

The fancy enduro guys with cash to burn are all riding e-bikes these days, as they can get more runs in a morning while burning less Craft Beer calories. 

I don't think there is a gap to fill in the gravity market. Established brands have come and failed. The amount of 2014 Pygas and Spez Enduro/Stumpys seen on the trails daily sort of illustrates the market trends

[MTBRIDER1234]

2 hours ago, PhilipV said:

Okay I'll bite:
Santa can be considered premium, but only because of high cost and limited production coupled to only being available in a few bike shops makes them seem premium. 

Scott, Merida, Giant, Cannondale, and Specialized are about as premium as a Toyota Hilux. And as common. I'm saying this as a Scott owner. Nothing premium about my bike. 

Vitus and  YT are mail order bikes. That is like saying you get better service at Outsurance while holding the line for thirty minutes after someone drove into you. At least you saved some money hey?

Like Jewbacca wrote. "Premium" is a mindset in the consumer, and it is influenced by marketing. But you pay for that, wether it translates to a better ride or peace of mind is debatable. But we are all emotional about bikes, so rationality is put aside. 

I agree with this, but IMHO, Yeti s the most premium. No question. Their bikes are top of the line, and the prices and quality reflect that. They are super hard to beat and they also have the iconic look dialed in