Shocking incident between van driver and cyclists in Camps Bay

[Tubehunter]

What tyou expect...me to read all 1000 pages???

 

 

Can someone please give a synopsis of this here pages??? 50 words or less...

 

There's 2 distinct camps on this thread.

There are those who have seen the footage and don't want to know anything more except for how severely the culprits are punished.

 

There are others who think the level of confrontation was entirely overboard and the perps deserve what they have coming, but as fellow cyclists would like to additionally know what the real circumstances in the build up to that were. Not to justify the perps actions but simply to get all the facts around whether the van had indeed deliberately put cyclists in danger and whether that could be addressed too.

[LeTurbo]

So a friend writes this on her FB page:

NICE - fkn cyclists - and Capetonians, nogal! [Two names here, mine and another's] - hope you and your mates don't behave like this! Apparently the incident is on YouTube and went viral. Was in the Cape Times too. Personally, I'm sick of "thinking bike" when just yesterday some dingbat in lycra chose to ignore the turning circle entirely and shot in front of me as I pulled off. Don't they know they have less protection without a car wrapped around them?

 

To which I felt I had to comment:

A question: if it had been a car, would you have still pulled out? If he was coming from the right, did he not have right of way? But no, I don't behave like this or condone it ... as a cyclist, I've had to accept that cars will turn left only a few metres in front of me (often from the right lane, and not knowing the bike brakes are not nearly as efficient as a car's); that they will overtake me, then suddenly brake for a parking (brake comment as before); that young people enjoy yelling in my ear just as their car passes or, as it seems happened in the incident above, throwing things from the car and squirting the cyclists with water. No, we learn to breath deeply and just say "Well, I'm still alive and that's the main thing" - even if, as has happened, the cyclist's arm is broken from a too-close wing-mirror. We just smile at the truck that forces us off the road, or the pedestrians that step in the way without looking, the cellphone-using drivers, the tikheads that try to rip us off our bikes so they can steal them. Yeah, we know that we have less protection; and we know that people are much more aggressive in their cars than they would be in the office; that drivers believe motorcyclists and cyclists and pedestrians don't belong on the road; that drivers say "ride single file" while they ignore double white lines and many other very basic road laws. We know these things because we drive cars too, and we see how different motorists' behaviour is when we use our different modes of transport. Can't justify the guys attack, but there have been times when I have been so angry at a driver's self-righteous behaviour that has nearly ended my life that I've contemplated swinging my bike through their windscreen. I just thank my HP that I haven't done that, but I understand how years of frustration could have just sparked a kindling fire. Ah well, there but for the grace of God go I.

 

 

Edit: another thought. All the cyclists here are angry - why was that? Surely, if only one cyclist stripped his moer, the others would have pulled him off (if reading this thread is anything to go by). No, they're all pissed off. That driver, or his passengers, did something they shouldn't have, I'm pretty sure of it. If the video had covered the entire situation, I wonder whether our perspective would be different? If it showed the driver doing something wrong, I doubt it would have got even a fraction of the exposure.

 

Edited March 6, 2014 by LeTurbo

[Cois]

Well then try this on for size...

 

[Blackbeard]

There's 2 distinct camps on this thread.

There are those who have seen the footage and don't want to know anything more except for how severely the culprits are punished.

 

There are others who think the level of confrontation was entirely overboard and the perps deserve what they have coming, but as fellow cyclists would like to additionally know what the real circumstances in the build up to that were. Not to justify the perps actions but simply to get all the facts around whether the van had indeed deliberately put cyclists in danger and whether that could be addressed too.

 

Biased much?

 

Short precis:

 

Cyclists wearing MC2 kit unlawfully attack the occupant of a stationery vehicle. It is recorded by 3rd party and it goes viral sparking unchecked vitriol against the club and cyclists in general.

 

Apologists contend we need to know the facts and what happened before the assault.

 

Others argue that what happened before does not justify violence. While what happened before creates context it does not affect the unacceptable and unlawful nature of the act.

 

Apologists insist that we need to know the FACTS and then proceed to speculate wildly to justify the MC2 riders involved while insisting that they do not condone the act (the "its wrong but he's my buddy view").

 

The MC2 riders are arrested and charged criminally. PPA kicks them out of the Argus and suspends them pending an enquiry.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Blackbeard

[Tubehunter]

 

just saying.

 

The facts are:

Eyewitness watched the lead rider looking over his right shoulder for an extended period of time. The rider then looked forward only to find the van in his path. He swerved to avoid the van, stopped his bicycle and proceded to have a verbal altercation. Then the fight started.

 

Want to help their cause, then its best to find similar facts and conjure up wonderful scenario's.

 

Yes people can be provoked into a blind rage. it really depends on what you have been exposed to prior to the "event" and how you dealt with it.

 

 

 

What are the chances the eye witness came into sight of the event just as the van had come to a complete halt deliberately brake checking the whole group?? The van would appear stationary to someone a couple of hundred meters back on the road. We all know that stretch and the group were likely doing upwards of 50 clicks at the time hammering along. Skinny wheel bikes have many road specific qualities, but completely stopping quickly and safely in a bunch is not one of them.

 

As a regular cyclist we are not in the habit of doing group rides into the back of random stationary vehicles for no reason. More so when we are at pace and leading out a large group. The car gets a dent and we get dead. What is being sold here in this account, makes no cycling sense, which is why myself and others are having to speculate.

[yellow jersey]

I'm glad people are beginning to look at scenarios that could have let to this extreme aggressive behaviour. I unfortunately do not have any answers either. These are experienced riders who have had encounters with cars or taxis in the past and to be honest the explanation of the group leader not paying any attention to rd and being surprised by a stationary vehicle being the cause for this fracas, I'm afraid does not sit very well with me. As a peloton leader you are vigilant to potholes manholes etc on the rd to warn those behind inthe group not able to see the rd, so really the probability of the group leader not seeing a Toyota van in his path is almost zero.

 

Guys think about this carefully as a cyclist have you ever taken you eyes off the rd soo long for a stationary vehicle that was always in your path to be visible at the very last minute that you almost collided with this vehicle; bearing in mind they were in a group so would not one of the other riders not warned the leader that he is not paying attention to the rd and he was heading towards this vehicle or was everyone not looking at the rd.

 

This by no means justifies the manner in which they expressed their frustration towards these youngsters, but we need to also be logical in our thinking especially when hearing anecdotal information.

in addtion to your comments about cyclist awareness on the rd..........if everyone notice this place was packed and the rd much busier than normal no way is a cyclist gonna have only 1 quarter of his attention to his surroundings

[HappyMartin]

We love our groups too much. It helps make enemies of people not in our group.

 

It's not a motorist it's a person in a car. It's not a roadie. It's a person on a road bike. It's not a cyclists. It's a person on a bicycle.

 

The moment we identify the person as a member of a group we are heading for generalizations if not outright prejudice. We do it by religion, race, gender, sexual orientation, age, class, nationality and everything else we can come up with.

 

It's lazy thinking. It's not helpful. This shouldn't be a motorist versus cyclist thing. It's just people acting like idiots. Now the guys in the video miss the Argus, have to go to court, hire lawyers. What a waste of time and resources. Bet they wish they turned the other cheek to whatever it was that provoked them, right or wrong.

 

 

[Tubehunter]

Biased much?

 

Yep I am, I am a fellow cyclist person and have ridden the same roads experiencing that almost vindictive driver along this stretch too, so identify with the anger, but not the rage.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Tubehunter

[Gerlach]

If thats the case can you explain why one of them went onto their Facebook page to gob off and brag about how they had shown people not to "mess with" their club? Is it some fiendishly clever tactic devised by their legal team or possibly the action of an amped up little cretin that wanted to show everybody how tough he is. you know like children do before they grow up.

That is the same point i have!!! ooo and it was Faizel Hendricks that posted that comment and he was one of the two that got arrested. It just show you, were he should have shut it and kept his tale between his knees

[Tubehunter]

Now the guys in the video miss the Argus, have to go to court, hire lawyers. What a waste of time and resources. Bet they wish they turned the other cheek to whatever it was that provoked them, right or wrong.

 

Did a check on Faisel's Argus results yesterday and after a stonking 3:01 last year, he had a decent C group seeding for this year and probably was on course for the elusive sub 3 after many years of trying. Think the greatest specific punishment has already been dealt. All the months of sub 3 training gone in one moment of retaliation...

[Rata Del Spruit]

 

The kids was the thing what struck me as well:.

 

Then you should definitely report that too. We can't have these kids going around moering everyone. Break the silence!

[GoLefty!!]

What are the chances the eye witness came into sight of the event just as the van had come to a complete halt deliberately brake checking the whole group?? The van would appear stationary to someone a couple of hundred meters back on the road. We all know that stretch and the group were likely doing upwards of 50 clicks at the time hammering along. Skinny wheel bikes have many road specific qualities, but completely stopping quickly and safely in a bunch is not one of them.

 

As a regular cyclist we are not in the habit of doing group rides into the back of random stationary vehicles for no reason. More so when we are at pace and leading out a large group. The car gets a dent and we get dead. What is being sold here in this account, makes no cycling sense, which is why myself and others are having to speculate.

 

Once again you're reaching for excuses. Stick to the facts. I recognize there is cause and effect but that really has to be measured by an independent party.

Visibility on that stretch of road is pretty good. AS the motorist describes he was driving behind this group for quite some time and would have had a good view of the road ahead as he was looking for an opportunity to pass while observing the 1.5m rule (glad that campaign has had the effect intended, .....thanks PPA). These are facts as stated in his statement.

 

how cyclists would or should or could behave is really reaching for desperation because our behaviour is not exactly a best practice guide for road use in Cape Town now is it...

Edited March 6, 2014 by GoLefty!!

[JTK]

absolutely disgusting. all of them should be thrown in jail for 6months at least. Those that stood around as well. Nothing could justify this type ob barbaric behaviour.

[Tubehunter]

how cyclists would or should or could behave is really reaching for desperation because our behaviour is not exactly a best practice guide for road use in Cape Town now is it...

 

What makes it this mostly is that very often the rules that are there to protect us, in fact make it more dangerous. Any group over 20 cyclists trying to ride through Clifton along Victoria road in single file can tell you about this experience. Each and every one of the 20 riders will at some point feel really threatened by that driver who has no spatial awareness of their vehicle, has committed to overtaking along this stretch and then sees a vehicle approaching from the front.

 

At the same time it is difficult for a motorist to understand that we don't take alternate measures purely for the sake of frustrating them, but almost entirely for our own safety. (Yes, there are the punks who cruise along side by side oblivious along their whole ride who completely mess this up too)

Edited March 6, 2014 by Tubehunter

[Witkop]

We love our groups too much. It helps make enemies of people not in our group.

 

It's not a motorist it's a person in a car. It's not a roadie. It's a person on a road bike. It's not a cyclists. It's a person on a bicycle.

 

The moment we identify the person as a member of a group we are heading for generalizations if not outright prejudice. We do it by religion, race, gender, sexual orientation, age, class, nationality and everything else we can come up with.

 

It's lazy thinking. It's not helpful. This shouldn't be a motorist versus cyclist thing. It's just people acting like idiots. Now the guys in the video miss the Argus, have to go to court, hire lawyers. What a waste of time and resources. Bet they wish they turned the other cheek to whatever it was that provoked them, right or wrong.

 

That is why we all hate pedestrians, as they are people with nothing, not even running shoes. Cannot even call them runners. WORST OFF IS THEY GET CAUGHT UNDER KNOBBLY TYRES SO EASILY. I spend hours trying to fish bits of them out of my drive chain. They should be forced back into the trees and bushes....

[(Deon)]

Biased much?

 

Short precis:

 

Cyclists wearing MC2 kit unlawfully attack the occupant of a stationery vehicle. It is recorded by 3rd party and it goes viral sparking unchecked vitriol against the club and cyclists in general.

 

Apologists contend we need to know the facts and what happened before the assault.

 

Others argue that what happened before does not justify violence. While what happened before creates context it does not affect the unacceptable and unlawful nature of the act.

 

Apologists insist that we need to know the FACTS and then proceed to speculate wildly to justify the MC2 riders involved while insisting that they do not condone the act (the "its wrong but he's my buddy view").

 

The MC2 riders are arrested and charged criminally. PPA kicks them out of the Argus and suspends them pending an enquiry.

Thanks, I was looking for a quick summary..