Are Hardtails dead?

[VeloRacer]

i went from a Scott Spark dual susser back to a hardtail.

 

Hardtail seems sharper and more responsive.

 

I realised the dual susser made me lazy.

[BaGearA]

My mindset is that a HT should be slacker than a comparative travel duallie.

 

A duallie under sag and compression will see the head angle and seat angle remaining reasonably constant with eachother.

 

A HT sees the HA steepen drastically under sag and compression with the seat angle also steepening.

 

My Dartmoor Hornet had a head angle of 65deg with a 160mm fork, and she was certainly not a pig on tighter trails, or felt cumbersome in any way.

alternatively , Like cotic do 

 

all frame measurements should be given at 25% sag 

[Grease_Monkey]

My mindset is that a HT should be slacker than a comparative travel duallie.

 

A duallie under sag and compression will see the head angle and seat angle remaining reasonably constant with eachother.

 

A HT sees the HA steepen drastically under sag and compression with the seat angle also steepening.

 

My Dartmoor Hornet had a head angle of 65deg with a 160mm fork, and she was certainly not a pig on tighter trails, or felt cumbersome in any way.

Same thinking here.

 

Mine sits at a hair over 65° with 150mm travel. I find it's as capable a climber as my much steeper HA dual suspension XC bike, but snappier and much more capable on the descents.

 

Where I often feel undergunned is fast rocky stuff. That just kills my kidneys, back, and everything else. Slow and steep tech, fast flowy stuff are both super fun on the HT. But my take - when I go to Jonkershoek I take the long travel enduro bike. I was there with the HT two weekends ago and was very quickly reminded why I told myseld I'd never do it again the previous time.

 

I find myself riding the hardtail lots on mellower stuff then I slowly get into the mindset of how a trail hardtail is the only bike I'll ever need. Then I take it somewhere like Jonkers and am very quickly reminded that a HT is not an only bike - not for me anyway.

Edited July 7, 2020 by Grease_Monkey

[Red Bird]

Same thinking here.

 

Mine sits at a hair over 65° with 150mm travel. I find it's as capable a climber as my much steeper HA dual suspension XC bike, but snappier and much more capable on the descents.

 

Where I often feel undergunned is fast rocky stuff. That just kills my kidneys, back, and everything else. Slow and steep tech, fast flowy stuff are both super fun on the HT. But my take - when I go to Jonkershoek I take the long travel enduro bike. I was there with the HT two weekends ago and was very quickly reminded why I told myseld I'd never do it again the previous time.

 

I find myself riding the hardtail lots on mellower stuff then I slowly get into the mindset of how a trail hardtail is the only bike I'll ever need. Then I take it somewhere like Jonkers and am very quickly reminded that a HT is not an only bike - not for me anyway.

Agree. For me, Neverending Story is fine on HT but some Armageddon sections are horrible on the HT.

[Jewbacca]

I will weigh in and say Jonkers trails on a HT are one of my favourite things. There are some guys who do it way better than me too.

 

With regards the HA, my take is that on SA trails anything slacker than 66.5' is completely unnecessary.

 

I'm all about balance, so I expect me and my bike to be able to climb without feeling like we are ploughing a field or wading through a river, but still descend like I'm being chased by a pack of angry cheerleaders.

 

I hate trail side tea parties and all the unnecessary stopping that guys so often do when lugging their enduro rigs around.

 

Balance and upskill.... 

[Grease_Monkey]

Agree. For me, Neverending Story is fine on HT but some Armageddon sections are horrible on the HT.

Yup - Neverending, Firehut, and Phoenix (when in good nic) can actually be more fun on a HT than dual sus. My fastest time top to bottom on Firehut is actually on my old Cotic Solaris...

 

Armageddon, Plumber, Iron Monkey all better on a dual suspension bike for me. That said, I am a bit more of a monster truck style rider than a float over things guy - I know of many guys that love those trails on a HT because their riding style suits it.

 

As for Status, I have not had the nuts to try that on a HT. A buddy of mine that did says it is no better or worse on his HT than dual sus - which kinda fits my theory that slow speed tech is fine on a HT.

[Headshot]

I will weigh in and say Jonkers trails on a HT are one of my favourite things. There are some guys who do it way better than me too.

 

With regards the HA, my take is that on SA trails anything slacker than 66.5' is completely unnecessary.

 

I'm all about balance, so I expect me and my bike to be able to climb without feeling like we are ploughing a field or wading through a river, but still descend like I'm being chased by a pack of angry cheerleaders.

 

I hate trail side tea parties and all the unnecessary stopping that guys so often do when lugging their enduro rigs around.

 

Balance and upskill.... 

Can't agree with you on the HTA, especially on a HT. Mine is 65 unloaded. Sit on the bike and it loses a degree or two because its a HT. A decent hardcore HT should have a 63 degree HTA. As for the steering on a climb, what about  "balance and upskill" for that too? 

[Hairy]

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/video-the-sounds-of-hardtail-shredding-in-pemberton.html

[BenGraham]

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/video-the-sounds-of-hardtail-shredding-in-pemberton.html

Stick that in you'll full sus carbon frame and smoke it.

Edited July 7, 2020 by BenGraham

[Me rida my bicycle]

OK maybe some thing wrong with me as I find Armageddon fun and easy on my HT, love Zululand and Firehut they are all fun and fast but the last 2 parts of never ending sucks on a HT to me.

[Red Bird]

OK maybe some thing wrong with me as I find Armageddon fun and easy on my HT, love Zululand and Firehut they are all fun and fast but the last 2 parts of never ending sucks on a HT to me.

Only did one section of Armageddon. Would love to go back and try the rest. Stuck in Gauteng though. Could be the 100mm fork that was pumped 10psi too hard? When I was in CT earlier this year I couldn’t get enough of Jonkers. Went there 3 days in a row. Awesome awesome place.

[Me rida my bicycle]

Only did one section of Armageddon. Would love to go back and try the rest. Stuck in Gauteng though. Could be the 100mm fork that was pumped 10psi too hard? When I was in CT earlier this year I couldn’t get enough of Jonkers. Went there 3 days in a row. Awesome awesome place.

yes fork and tyre pressure is so important to be on point. My tyres need to be soft for max grip and extra suspension but just hard enough not to smash the rim. So my 2.35's I run at 20/18psi. Fork about the same psi as I weigh.

[daveno7]

DO IT!!!

the bank account says no at the moment.....sadly

[Grease_Monkey]

OK maybe some thing wrong with me as I find Armageddon fun and easy on my HT, love Zululand and Firehut they are all fun and fast but the last 2 parts of never ending sucks on a HT to me.

Can't say I find it hard, just not fun. But I think it's because I am comparing it to the dual suspension bike which I can ride quite a bit faster down there. Strava actually says the hardtail is about 50% slower. But that comes down to riding style. You get so used to being able to just steamroll everything on a 160mm enduro bike, that when you get on the hardtail you have to adjust the riding style a bit.

 

Anyway, I'm derailing this thread now.

 

Trail hardtails are awesome. And when you are on the right trail, so much more fun than a dual suspension bike.

[TeamBaja]

Hi, Actually since we are a specialized dealer among other we have only big brands. Once or so per month we get to build some ridiculous bike mtb bike for a guy, build several with the whole axs group but still mainstream bikes. Costing 12k or more, we do some obscene tri and road bikes north of 20k. 

The exotic bike market is somewhat of a niche market here, they are all usually in the same shop. 

 

Do you guys sell any exotic, or less commonly seen brands, or any recent beauties that you have built?

[TeamBaja]

Most are factory spec, the reason is because mtb is secondary in our shop. The employees are all mtb guys, haha. But we sell a lot of stans, fox forks. The whole hardtail breakdown is like this, cheap 2k < or for newbies or first upgrade, then 4k> for racers. The full (trail) goes to the rest guys that want to learn or have fun on a bike.

 

Most riding trails are "safe" because all are on government land, so you know what that means. Every trail has to be approved and ilegal trails are destroyed you can be charged with a crime for building them. Mountain bikers aren't loved at all in some areas, San Diego is ok I guess. Most race course are fairly easy even for a noob, as far as the technical part is concerned. Climbing and speed is what gets you.

 

Some go to race down in Baja, Mex because of the trails are more technical. The enduro is building up here but we don't see a demand at least not here.

Stay safe

Are you selling more trail or XC hardtails, what sort of spec (decent forks and wheels) are the most sold bikes coming with, and out of interest what are your local trails like?

 

I imagine in the USA you have a better range of decent hardtails vs us in SA where most bikes are duallies, and very XC and marathon focused .... though saying that, trail and enduro has certainly taken traction over here the last year or two, but still nothing compared to our XC and marathon bikes.