Old Mutual Wealth Double Century 2022 on behalf of a slacking Pure Savage

[bleedToWin]

2 minutes ago, Skubarra said:

And if the marshal get to the group by the time its a free for all with different groups completely mixed together in massive bunches - they will spent all day hunting down people and still miss most. And due to the format it can happen literally any place at any time during the day. Stand by my point its the format that is "unmarshalable". Unfortunately this event is not about the faster teams.

Maybe once we can access Cogmanskloof at any time of day they could consider changing the start order to the saver version.

 

[Meezo]

1 minute ago, Skubarra said:

And if the marshal get to the group by the time its a free for all with different groups completely mixed together in massive bunches - they will spent all day hunting down people and still miss most. And due to the format it can happen literally any place at any time during the day. Stand by my point its the format that is "unmarshalable". Unfortunately this event is not about the faster teams.

of the same opinion, it only changed for 2 years post/during covid no point.

leave it as is just tighten up on rider safety briefing and again stricter and smarter marshal's. in my earlier response when i did find myself guttered in the oncoming lane it wasn't long when the marshal came and got everything in order as best as possible.

for those that remember you want mayhem remember the DC's with the full 202km being supported from a following team car... now that was a mess

[Akon]

18 minutes ago, Meezo said:

of the same opinion, it only changed for 2 years post/during covid no point.

leave it as is just tighten up on rider safety briefing and again stricter and smarter marshal's. in my earlier response when i did find myself guttered in the oncoming lane it wasn't long when the marshal came and got everything in order as best as possible.

for those that remember you want mayhem remember the DC's with the full 202km being supported from a following team car... now that was a mess

IMO: The error in your, and @Skubarra's, thinking is best explained by a different example:

We'll never be able to eradicate murder, no hard we try, so let us allow a free-for-aal regarding murdering each other.

Sure, marshalling is difficult, and will not be 100% effective (not even close), but does that mean they should not even try?

• Marshal beter;
• Make it / promote it to be a matter of honour for a team to deliberately not draft (Everybody will agree it is not allowed to take a shortcut, and even stupid to do so - why go through the trouble of entering/pitching/riding and then short-change yourself? - but almost nobody has a problem with drafting other teams in a TTT?

Edit: Sorry, I see you actually sort of agree ;-D

Edited December 1, 2022 by Akon

[Thornman]

1 hour ago, FootballingCyclist said:

Speaking of crashes, Anyone have news on the lady from the PEAK team in the celeste colour jerseys who crashed basically right under the Cogmanskloof pass and who was taken to hospital?

 

Then I only heard after the race that a marshall has sadly passed away? some team was saying they rode past him and he was already covered with a foil blanket, No damage to his motorbike so they assumed it was a heart attack??

It was not a marshal. 

 

It was a man and his wife touring. They hit a Guinea fowl and crashed. The wife was taken to hospital.  

Edited December 1, 2022 by Thornman

[Bub Marley]

10 hours ago, milky4130 said:

more teams = more money in the bank.

Reverse order should encourage teams to ride faster if they dont want to be out there later than 3pm.

This is a bit of weird take. Not everyone is as fit as you mate. Im pretty sure most of the teams also put in the hard work as well. 

 

The organisers were pretty clear as to why the order is reversed and it makes sense given the distance. Unfortunately we can’t win everywhere.

10 hours ago, Pure Savage said:

The marshals that are around should be asking the social teams to not ride in groups of 5 wide, rather than tell the team trying to pass that there is no space.

From what I saw most of them were trying to get the teams to move over. I don’t think it’s that easy. You can get some really arrogant and stubborn cyclists who just refuse to move over. The same ones that then also blame everyone else despite riding like absolute dimwits in the first place.

 

There is no winning formula here. I think the current format is the best one. Cyclists just need more education and discipline. In the briefing we were told teams will get flagged for riding more than 2 abreast. This wasn’t enforced. I understand its very difficult to enforce this but we have to do better.

 

[Spinnekop]

17 minutes ago, Akon said:

IMO: The error in your, and @Skubarra's, thinking is best explained by a different example:

We'll never be able to eradicate murder, no hard we try, so let us allow a free-for-aal regarding murdering each other.

Sure, marshalling is difficult, and will not be 100% effective (not even close), but does that mean they should not even try?

• Marshal beter;
• Make it / promote it to be a matter of honour for a team to deliberately not draft (Everybody will agree it is not allowed to take a shortcut, and even stupid to do so - why go through the trouble of entering/pitching/riding and then short-change yourself? - but almost nobody has a problem with drafting other teams in a TTT?

Edit: Sorry, I see you actually sort of agree ;-D

You can have the best marshals in the world.  

Slow teams are going to occupy the whole left lane.  They don't think (or care in SA) about racing.
Fast riders will go like maniacs and shout and scream and swear an pass dangerously.
Swearing like what I've heard that day from teams passing us............"bringing the sport in disrepute" would be that "better marshal's" conclusion.
Also crossing the white line.  DQ the top 5 teams sommer before the start and spare some expensive petrol.
The "better marshal" will not be able to DQ the slow teams.......they are just prodding along left side.
The racing screamers will have the short stick of justice

Top 10 start front.  They can do their sub 5s in relative peace and only have to swear at tannies next to the road drinking coffee to close to their egos.  
Rest of the folks in reverse order.

Just my 2c.

[Skubarra]

19 minutes ago, Akon said:

IMO: The error in your, and @Skubarra's, thinking is best explained by a different example:

We'll never be able to eradicate murder, no hard we try, so let us allow a free-for-aal regarding murdering each other.

Sure, marshalling is difficult, and will not be 100% effective (not even close), but does that mean they should not even try?

• Marshal beter;
• Make it / promote it to be a matter of honour for a team to deliberately not draft (Everybody will agree it is not allowed to take a shortcut, and even stupid to do so - why go through the trouble of entering/pitching/riding and then short-change yourself? - but almost nobody has a problem with drafting other teams in a TTT?

Edit: Sorry, I see you actually sort of agree ;-D

You disqualify 50 teams but 150 get away with doing the same thing I want to see how well the "At least we tried" excuse will fly in the post-race fallout.

If the safety of the fastest teams was the bigger concern then organisers would have stuck with the 2020 format which is easy to marshal. Fine if the okes have their rant on here but you should know by now you are signing up for a free-for-all murdering spree 😋

 

[Meezo]

19 minutes ago, Bub Marley said:

This is a bit of weird take. Not everyone is as fit as you mate. Im pretty sure most of the teams also put in the hard work as well. 

 

The organisers were pretty clear as to why the order is reversed and it makes sense given the distance. Unfortunately we can’t win everywhere.

From what I saw most of them were trying to get the teams to move over. I don’t think it’s that easy. You can get some really arrogant and stubborn cyclists who just refuse to move over. The same ones that then also blame everyone else despite riding like absolute dimwits in the first place.

 

There is no winning formula here. I think the current format is the best one. Cyclists just need more education and discipline. In the briefing we were told teams will get flagged for riding more than 2 abreast. This wasn’t enforced. I understand its very difficult to enforce this but we have to do better.

 

WINNER!!! i say I

[Jewbacca]

Doesn't this just come back to a group mentality issue. 

The riders KNOW they shouldn't ride in bunches, but as it happens, there is little regard and very little individual accountability, so people behave differently.

Look at dinner parties or gatherings. Up to say, 5 or 6 people, the bill is paid correctly, tip is usually sorted, conversation followed.... Make it 10? Suddenly those same people behave differently as there is now a large enough group to get lost in.

I see it on our morning rides too. The usual 4 guys/girls, suddenly all bring friends and partners and they are running red lights, riding 2 abreast and taking up space they shouldn't.

People in large groups are infuriating. I avoid them. I just hate it when that switch visibly happens.

So how do they change it? Maybe a deviation of Iron Man rules. Team gets pulled over by a marshall for 10 minutes everytime they draft or merge in another teams space?

The stops get times? The teams get time penalties? More than 2 stops/penalties per team, team gets withdrawn?

There must be a simple system where accountability calls the decisions into question

[DieselnDust]

32 minutes ago, Bub Marley said:

This is a bit of weird take. Not everyone is as fit as you mate. Im pretty sure most of the teams also put in the hard work as well. 

 

The organisers were pretty clear as to why the order is reversed and it makes sense given the distance. Unfortunately we can’t win everywhere.

From what I saw most of them were trying to get the teams to move over. I don’t think it’s that easy. You can get some really arrogant and stubborn cyclists who just refuse to move over. The same ones that then also blame everyone else despite riding like absolute dimwits in the first place.

 

There is no winning formula here. I think the current format is the best one. Cyclists just need more education and discipline. In the briefing we were told teams will get flagged for riding more than 2 abreast. This wasn’t enforced. I understand its very difficult to enforce this but we have to do better.

 

Amen on the last paragraph. I think warning flags and on the road penalties can work. Klap and offending team with 10min in the chill zone does several things.

it hits them where it hurts, time target.

it pulls them back toward faster groups they have no hope in hell of hanging onto. At some point they will be out of the way which is what needs to be achieved.

by the time teams are leaving Bonnievale the problem has largely disappeared. It the R62 to Robertson and the road to van Louveren winery /rooibruf were the main problem. Is. 

[DieselnDust]

3 minutes ago, Jewbacca said:

Doesn't this just come back to a group mentality issue. 

The riders KNOW they shouldn't ride in bunches, but as it happens, there is little regard and very little individual accountability, so people behave differently.

Look at dinner parties or gatherings. Up to say, 5 or 6 people, the bill is paid correctly, tip is usually sorted, conversation followed.... Make it 10? Suddenly those same people behave differently as there is now a large enough group to get lost in.

I see it on our morning rides too. The usual 4 guys/girls, suddenly all bring friends and partners and they are running red lights, riding 2 abreast and taking up space they shouldn't.

People in large groups are infuriating. I avoid them. I just hate it when that switch visibly happens.

So how do they change it? Maybe a deviation of Iron Man rules. Team gets pulled over by a marshall for 10 minutes everytime they draft or merge in another teams space?

The stops get times? The teams get time penalties? More than 2 stops/penalties per team, team gets withdrawn?

There must be a simple system where accountability calls the decisions into question

Snap

[DJuice]

1 hour ago, Meezo said:

for those that remember you want mayhem remember the DC's with the full 202km being supported from a following team car... now that was a mess

That was last when I rode. Mixed team and following year in a team car.

Never again!!

Still have fond memories of those years.

[DieselnDust]

3 minutes ago, DJuice said:

That was last when I rode. Mixed team and following year in a team car.

Never again!!

Still have fond memories of those years.

We not so much as i witnessed a big accident that caused me to stop riding the dc. Team bakkie got in between its team and a following team and braked. Not sure how many riders when to hospital but there weee broken bones in that pile up. When the new format was implemented I was too unfit to ride DC but I came back and the new format is a lot more pleasant, despite its warts

[DJuice]

1 minute ago, DieselnDust said:

 When the new format was implemented I was too unfit to ride DC but I came back and the new format is a lot more pleasant, despite its warts

That is me right now! Excuse over excuse for not putting in the time to get fit again. 

Much easier to tell the young ones, back in the day....

Hopefully I can make a turn around and would like to meet you one day to put a face to a name.

 

[Pure Savage]

45 minutes ago, Spinnekop said:

You can have the best marshals in the world.  

Slow teams are going to occupy the whole left lane.  They don't think (or care in SA) about racing.
Fast riders will go like maniacs and shout and scream and swear an pass dangerously.
Swearing like what I've heard that day from teams passing us............"bringing the sport in disrepute" would be that "better marshal's" conclusion.
Also crossing the white line.  DQ the top 5 teams sommer before the start and spare some expensive petrol.
The "better marshal" will not be able to DQ the slow teams.......they are just prodding along left side.
The racing screamers will have the short stick of justice

Top 10 start front.  They can do their sub 5s in relative peace and only have to swear at tannies next to the road drinking coffee to close to their egos.  
Rest of the folks in reverse order.

Just my 2c.

Dont need to DQ. 

If you get caught riding accross the full lane, you get not medals and no free beer at the end and you have to pay for your funny photo on the stage. 

You will see perfect single files lines all over the Overberg.

[DieSwartGevaar]

Rate the only solution is to stagger the fastest 10-15 Open, 5-10 mixed and Ladies teams throughout the field, this way you ensure the teams racing for a top finish are not drafting each other (looking at the DC instagram, there was Argus size pelotons happening on the R62). It also reduces the size of the faster bunches flying past the slower riders. A time penalty is not a deterrent for a slower team, as the main goal is typically finishing as a group of 12.

Then implement what @Pure Savagesuggest, if slower teams are taking up the entire left hand lane, have the marshals focus on them to single our double file on the far left, at threat of losing that 12 rider finish/free beer/photo etc.