Downhill Riders,including current SA National Champ, overlooked for World Champs

[wolver]

7 minutes ago, Irvin85 said:

Take athletics for example 100m sprint only has 56slots available at the Olympics. to qualify you had to run 10.00. In the US trials, there was 12 men that ran the qualifying time in the semi finals.

There will be only 3 that goes to the Olympics even though any of the 12 men could potentially medal. 

 

But if the US were allocated 5 places instead of 3... would they still have only taken 3 of those 12?

Edited July 16 by wolver

[PregoRoll]

17 minutes ago, Shebeen said:

hmm. but how do you get ranked in the top100 if you can't get points from WC?

for instance Theo Erlangsen came 37th last year at world champs, but is ranked out of the top100. He's does other events that are not points ranking. You're happy he stays at home even though it won't cost CSA anything more than the ink on a rubber stamp?

Get more UCI points then? Go to more World Cups and make it through qualifying? As Irvin said. this isnt "participation worlds". Its for the top ranked riders from each country in each category. Would you feel better if GM gave up his spot for Theo? Even though GM has the highest chance of a medal of all the DH riders in SA? 

The "It wont cost CSA anything more than the ink" statement is laughable. 

[BaGearA]

doesn't all our local nationals also award UCI points for top scorers or are freestyle and hardline riders specifically excluded

 

British downhill series is another which tons of riders go to to score points 

 

 

There seems to be a very fine stench of not competing and going to darkfest and the like then when world champs comes along ....  

[ChrisF]

25 minutes ago, Shebeen said:

hmm. but how do you get ranked in the top100 if you can't get points from WC?

for instance Theo Erlangsen came 37th last year at world champs, but is ranked out of the top100. He's does other events that are not points ranking. You're happy he stays at home even though it won't cost CSA anything more than the ink on a rubber stamp?

 

Newbie question -

 

So if he is in the "top 40", why did he not take part in the relevant qualifying events ?

 

 

The rules are never perfect, but as long it has been in place long enough then all knew what to do.  Or am I missing something ?

[Headshot]

2 hours ago, BaGearA said:

Okay but where is he ranked 

 

WC racing is as much as its about consistency, saying he wants to race world champs because he gooied kliphard at hardline isn't what world champs is about.

 

I understand my view isn't perfect and that the ideal solution is maybe a grey line between my view and yours but this is RSA and here you get it done without the gov involvement or you don't.

Except the World Champs is not the world cup,  and is more of a go "gooi kliphard" one off where there is usually a far bigger field than in the Cup. Many countries field numerous riders who are not medal contenders.

 

Why deny riders who are self -funding and come from a poorly represented country from gaining experience and possibly moving up a gear in a big event like this?

 

All the excluded riders are talented and very fast. Its not like some arb okes from BikeHub want to go and feel hard done by.  

Maybe they should let some guys who have done "The race that measures all" go instead?

 

 

[DieselnDust]

 

snip snip snip from the selection criteria document. 

So if he WCDH commission raised concerns with the selection criteria what were those concerns and what is the correspondence on the matter. Precedent is that the discipline Commissioner and the provincial body provide input into those criteria and it is signed off by all provinces before being published. How is it that this was only seen by WCDH after publication?

 

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DHI Selection Criteria 30.

Performance Time Period

30.1. The performance period for the purposes of selections is 15th Jan 2024 to 16th Jun 2024. In the case of extenuating circumstances being approved, the Panel may consider an athlete’s results in the 12 months prior to the performance time period.

31. Selection Events For the purposes of nominations, the selectors will consider performances achieved in the following events, and in the order of priority:

31.1. 2024 UCI DHI World Cups Rounds 1 to 5 between 03rd May and 30th Jun 2024

31.2. 2024 CSA National DHI Championships.

31.3. 2024 CSA National Cup Series DHI events during the performance period.

31.4. 2023 UCI DHI World Championships, though this will not form part of the performance time period.

31.5. Any further UCI Categorized Races: Cat 1 and Cat 2 during the performance period.

 

32. Performance Criteria Subject to meeting the selection criteria at a primary, secondary and tertiary level for different tiered events, riders qualify for points towards selection their performance profiles in the following ways at different level events:

- 32.1. SA DHI Championship 2024

- -32.1.1. Points allocations: 1st place = 2 points; 2nd = 1 points : 3rd place = 0,5 points

- -32.1.2. Men’s categories – must be a minimum of five participants per category.

- -32.1.3. Women’s categories – must be a minimum of three participants per category.

- - -32.1.3.1. If insufficient numbers occur in the Elite or Junior Women categories – the overall Women winner (if competing within the above categories, and finishing within 120% of the respective Male category winner) will be awarded 1 point.

32.2. SA National Cup Series 2024

- -32.2.1. To be eligible for this point’s criteria, riders must participate in at least 75% of the SA Cup Series events held prior to the closure of the performance period on 31st May 2024

32.2.2. Points allocations Series final standings (75%) = 1 st 2 points; 2nd 1 point; 3rd 0.5 points Elite Men: (a) Performance: Must be within 103% of the race winner on at least 3 series races (b) Basis: Only Final Run results will be assessed Elite Women: (a) Performance: Must be within 105% of the race winner on applicable races (b) Basis: Only Final Run results will be assessed Junior Men: (a) Performance: Must be within 103% of the race winner on applicable races (b) Basis: Only Final Run results will be assessed Junior Women: (a) Performance: Must be within 105% of the race winner on applicable races (b) Basis: Only Final Run results will be assessed

32.3. African Continental Champion [only if held in 2024]

32.3.1. Points allocations: 2 points to winner

32.3.2. There must be a minimum of 5 South African riders (3 in the Women’s category) present per Elite/Junior category for this to apply. This number is automatically reduced in accordance with the numbers selected if less than five per category.

32.4. 2023 World Championships

32.4.1. Points allocations: 2 points to any rider finishing in the top 25% of the respective category starting field at the previous MTB World Championships.

32.4.1.1. Junior results are subject to the rider still being eligible for the Junior category and cannot be transferred to the Elite Category.

32.5. UCI World Cup Final Run: - (2 points) Elite Men: (a) Have a race time within 105% of the winning race time Elite Women: (a) Have a race time within 110% of the winning race time Junior Men: (a) Have a race time within 105% of the winning race time Junior Women: (a) Have a race time within 110% of the winning race time

32.6. UCI World Cup Semi-final Qualifying Run:

32.6.1. Points allocations: 1 point to any rider who qualifies for a World Cup semi-final within the performance time period will receive a point.

32.7. UCI World Cup Rankings as on the Selection Date 30th June 2024

-32.7.1. Points allocations: 2 points to any Elite or Junior Men or Women rider in the top 10% of the UCI World Cup rankings. 32.8. UCI Categorized Races: Cat 1(EG: IXS Cup events)

32.8.1. Points allocations: 1 point plus, an additional 1 point for a podium result Elite Men: (a) Have a race time within 105% of the winning race time Elite Women: (a) Have a race time within 110% of the winning race time Junior Men: (a) Have a race time within 110% of the Elite Men’s winning race time Junior Women: (a) Have a race time within 120% of the Elite Women’s winning race time

32.9. UCI Categorized Races: Cat 2 (EG: IXS Cup events) 32.9.1. Points allocations .5 point Elite Men: (a) Have a race time within 105% of the winning race time Elite Women: (a) Have a race time within 110% of the winning race time Junior Men: (a) Have a race time within 110% of the Elite Men’s winning race time Junior Women: (a) Have a race time within 120% of the Elite Women’s winning race time

32.10. IXS Cup Rankings

32.10.1. Points allocations: 1 point to any rider who ranked within the Top 3 of EITHER the IXS European Cup OR IXS Downhill Cup Rankings as of the selection date on 30th June 2024.

 

33. Tier 1: World Championships Selections

33.1. Subject to available national starting positions at the World Championships (inclusive of juniors) , selection criteria shall be based on the principles below taking into consider that if more athletes per category attain the criteria listed than the quota available, priority shall be given to primary, then secondary criteria. The selectors will select the best athletes based on results achieved on a course having similar characteristics and profile to the proposed course for the event.

33.1.1. Additionally, the relevant Selection Panel shall consider any one or more of the following factors to select the best athlete:

33.1.1.1. Any of the result(s) and performance(s) of the athlete at national and/or international competitions, with priority given to results and performances in selection period prior to the applicable Team Selection Date, including a comparison of the athletes at the National Championships.

33.1.1.2. The technical, physical, and mental skills, as well as behavior, of the athlete which are relevant to the nature of the event and the environment of the applicable International Competition to meet team objectives.

33.2. Primary Selections

33.2.1. Riders meeting standards and results capable of achieving the following results at the 2024 UCI World Championships.

33.2.1.1. Elite Men – Top 15

33.2.1.2. Elite Women – Top 10

33.2.1.3. Junior Men – Top 20

33.2.1.4. Junior Women – Top 10

 

33.2.2. Any athlete finishing in a medal position at the most recent World Championships in a Downhill racing event shall be eligible to selection, shall be eligible for Primary Selections on a partly funded basis or as determined by ExBo.

33.2.3. Athletes who qualified for participation in the semi-finals at the recent World Championships, or a World Cup Event held during the selection period shall be considered for Primary Selections, subject to achieving the required performance standards set out in this policy. 33.2.4. A rider who is in the Top 10 of the UCI World Rankings at the time of selection, will be exempt from the requirements for performance criteria.

33.2.5. Riders who have attained a performance profile of seven (7) points, shall be eligible for Primary Selections on a partly funded basis or as determined by ExBo.

 

33.3. Secondary Selection

33.3.1. Athletes who have qualified for semi final at any UCI World Cup during the selection period or for finals at any European or American UCI Class 1 event during the selection period shall be eligible for Secondary Selections on a partly funded basis or as determined by ExBo, subject to achieving the required performance standards set out in this policy.

33.3.2. Athletes, 25 years and younger, who are on an elite medal trajectory in the next 5 years shall be considered for selections, subject to achieving the required performance standards set out in this policy shall be eligible for Secondary Selections on a partly funded basis or as determined by ExBo. These shall include:

33.3.2.1. Elite athletes who have demonstrated through international performances and results the potential to progress toward a result as listed in 33.2.1 at the UCI MTB World Championships within 2 years.

33.3.2.2. Junior athletes who have demonstrated potential to progress towards a result as listed in 33.2.1 at future World Championships.

33.3.3. Riders who have attained a performance profile of five (5) points, shall be eligible for Secondary Selections on a partly funded basis or as determined by ExBo.

 

33.4. Tertiary Selection

33.4.1. Athletes not meeting the selection criteria as outlined in clauses 33.2.1, 33.2.2, 33.3.1 or 33.3.2 shall be considered for tertiary selections on a self-funded basis or as determined by ExBo. 33.4.2. Athletes who have the potential to be one of the top three ranked South Africans on the UCI DHI individual rankings at the end of 2024 such that their performance at World Championships may assist South Africa’s overall nation ranking.

33.4.3. Riders who have attained a performance profile of three (3) points, shall be considered for tertiary selections on a self-funded basis or as determined by ExBo. 34. Tier 2: African Continental Championships 2024 34.1. If no quota is applied, there will not be selection criteria for the African Continental Championships in 2024, and all licensed riders may participate. In the case that quotas apply, the criteria shall be the same as for the World Championships

 

34.2. Participation in the African Continental Championship will be on a self-funded basis, unless funding is available as determined by ExBo, in which case the criteria as for World Champs will apply.

 

35. Tier 3: Host Nation Team Selection for any MTB World Cup that may be held in SA

35.1. Riders with UCI Points: Those riders who have sufficient UCI points to qualify in terms of UCI rules, will automatically be able to participate.

35.2. The onus is on these riders to inform Cycling SA-MTB of their intention to participate at least 1 month before the World Cup registration day.

35.3. Riders with insufficient UCI points and first-time Juniors [who were Youth in previous year]: 35.3.1. As host nation, SA is allowed to enter 6 riders in teams for the different categories in addition to riders who qualify automatically. These riders shall be ranked according to their performance profile and selected based on these individual rankings.

 

36. Competitive and comparative assessment: If further assessment is required where riders are very close on performances achieved in terms of clause 32 the Selection Panel will also be required to assess performance in terms of results achieved, in the priority order shown, as to:

36.1. Head-to-Head: Where positions are tallied, with the lowest total being the best result

36.2. Podiums: Top 3 positions achieved in selection races, with points 1st=3; 2nd =2; 3rd=1 36.3. Ranking: UCI World ranking followed by RSA ranking

[Headshot]

9 minutes ago, PregoRoll said:

Get more UCI points then? Go to more World Cups and make it through qualifying? As Irvin said. this isnt "participation worlds". Its for the top ranked riders from each country in each category. Would you feel better if GM gave up his spot for Theo? Even though GM has the highest chance of a medal of all the DH riders in SA? 

The "It wont cost CSA anything more than the ink" statement is laughable. 

Laughable - why?

[Shebeen]

14 minutes ago, Irvin85 said:

Take athletics for example 100m sprint only has 56slots available at the Olympics. to qualify you had to run 10.00. In the US trials, there was 12 men that ran the qualifying time in the semi finals.

There will be only 3 that goes to the Olympics even though any of the 12 men could potentially medal. 

 

yes. that is one of the most extreme examples. Christian Coleman comes 4th, doesn't go.

Athing Mu trips in the final, doesn't go.

The Kenyan 3000m olympic qualifier is harder to win than the olympics itself.

I'm a sailor, it happens on occasison the best two sailors in the world are team mates who train together and push each other over the cycle, selection is often a huge issue in this case.

So in some cases, just getting selected is a huge hurdle and achievement.

Then there's the issue that peaking for qualifying isn't necessarily the best approach for best return at the games.

 

[Headshot]

48 minutes ago, DieselnDust said:

This is all emotion. having more spots available isn't a guarantee of representation. There are criteria that need to be met and by taking out a racing license you sign up to and agree to those criteria. Rules can't be changed simply because they were not understood or no one bothered to read them.

 

and self funding is not even a consideration here. The argument smacks of self entitlement.

Its UCI World Champs not the Fun Ride World Champs

You're a bit spiteful I think. If these guys are all we have and have made a huge effort to ride and race overseas then give them a go I say. Suddenly paying your own way is "self-entitlement". Weird.

[DieselnDust]

3 minutes ago, Shebeen said:

yes. that is one of the most extreme examples. Christian Coleman comes 4th, doesn't go.

Athing Mu trips in the final, doesn't go.

The Kenyan 3000m olympic qualifier is harder to win than the olympics itself.

I'm a sailor, it happens on occasison the best two sailors in the world are team mates who train together and push each other over the cycle, selection is often a huge issue in this case.

So in some cases, just getting selected is a huge hurdle and achievement.

Then there's the issue that peaking for qualifying isn't necessarily the best approach for best return at the games.

 

well there you make a great point, the biggest hurdle is qualifying. What must I do to overcome that hurdle first?

anyone remember Eddie The Eagle Edwards...?

[Danger Dassie]

2 minutes ago, Headshot said:

You're a bit spiteful I think. If these guys are all we have and have made a huge effort to ride and race overseas then give them a go I say. Suddenly paying your own way is "self-entitlement". Weird.

Exactly, it's incredibly disingenuous commentary for people to be making. 

[BaGearA]

1 minute ago, Headshot said:

 Suddenly paying your own way is "self-entitlement". Weird.

I can't pay my way into the SPA GP but if I could and got denied would it be entitlement ? 

 

NO, top top top level sporting has qualifying criteria 

[Headshot]

1 minute ago, BaGearA said:

I can't pay my way into the SPA GP but if I could and got denied would it be entitlement ? 

 

NO, top top top level sporting has qualifying criteria 

Sure, but comparing DH MTB to F1 is a very bad example. There's nothing stopping you from paying your way in by forming a team and qualifying last every time like Alfa Tauri or whoever is currently at the bottom. Try again 🙂 

[Shebeen]

1 minute ago, DieselnDust said:

well there you make a great point, the biggest hurdle is qualifying. What must I do to overcome that hurdle first?

anyone remember Eddie The Eagle Edwards...?

We have massive thread drift here.

The topic is on CSA not selecting people who qualify on their standards, yet we have 5 slots available. In the past it seems those who qualified and could fund it could go, they might or might not even get some teamkit included.

 

For olympics in general there is a standard time you need to meet, For measured sports it's normally the qualifying time for a semifinal or a listed number of slots for ranking sports. In our case going through africa champs is often an easier pathway, but I think SASCOC said ranked in top50 was a requirement.

[PregoRoll]

8 minutes ago, Headshot said:

Laughable - why?

I hate CSA and some of their policies and actions as much as the next person, but this isnt a case of beep boop boop and their work is done. WC is a big thing for CSA and they do all that they can to provide support for the riders, even with their limited budget. 

You know those declining road racing numbers? Well those CSA license fees would help fund the WC riders. Less of that, less WC riders that can be supported

 

[Irvin85]

7 minutes ago, Shebeen said:

yes. that is one of the most extreme examples. Christian Coleman comes 4th, doesn't go.

Athing Mu trips in the final, doesn't go.

The Kenyan 3000m olympic qualifier is harder to win than the olympics itself.

I'm a sailor, it happens on occasison the best two sailors in the world are team mates who train together and push each other over the cycle, selection is often a huge issue in this case.

So in some cases, just getting selected is a huge hurdle and achievement.

Then there's the issue that peaking for qualifying isn't necessarily the best approach for best return at the games.

 

Take a Sport like Wrestling for example, you qualify to represent your country by winning the national trials, then you need to compete in a qualifying tournament where only the winner gets to go. If you are the second best wrestler in the world and the no1 is also from your country, Sorry Bru but you are going nowhere, no one will even know your name. 

For SA to take 6 riders is a joke. Seriously especially if the guys is not even ranked in the top 100. If they were top 15 in the world than it is a different story. then take all 6 by all means. Just because we can take 6 does not mean you have to. I would rather pay for 1 guy to go than have 6 guys that is self funded go just to say, "hey I was at world champs and placed 200 out of 210."