Downhill Riders,including current SA National Champ, overlooked for World Champs

[Danger Dassie]

Just now, DieselnDust said:

I don't follow....

 

 comment was made about sacrifices being bigger on the DH side. I drew out that others also make huge sacrifice and somehow theres a false Equivocation...???

This has nothing to do with us vs them. This is a process discussion, one that the agrieved parties supporters have not even begun to unpack other than claiming injury. Right now its abit like England looking for a penalty while 2-1down to Spain

Comparisons were made even before then, as you say it shouldn't be us/them, so no need to compound it by commenting about specific sacrifices from athletes.
Plus your own posts,  despite denying it were loaded with spiteful/snide comments, like now even about penalties. There's no place for any of it.
It would be better for HS to say what the challenges are, although I could believe DH has bigger challenges by default due to the small scene here and limited entry points to the sport. Which means far fewer sponsorship opportunities to enable riders to breakthrough. 

Along the 'process of discussion,' it has actually been unpacked through a number of posts here and online. 
The CSA criteria does seem questionable overall, I mean those top tier placing requirements alone would exclude most riders even from the top nations. Which begs the question, while these high level expectations are set for the riders. Who sets those? Do they have the prerequisite institutional experience to say these are the criteria? 
Arguably not. This leaves us in an embarrassing stalemate that doesn't serve anyone and is actually a failure in many respects.

Objectively; there isn't really a fundamental reason to field at least two more riders in the elite field. SA Champ and one other. This would also mean we have an elite presence/mentors on site for our juniors. I get that having slots "isn't a guarantee" but it makes no sense to discourage participation, by it's it's very nature participation will generate a more competitive/higher performing field. 

IMHO CSA have over the last few years been making a concerted effort with their own challenges and this shouldn't overshadow that or the team representing SA. But this needs to be dealt with openly and honestly between the riders and CSA, not opaque side stepping. 

[DieselnDust]

25 minutes ago, Headshot said:

I strongly suspect that all the XCO riders even Candice have more support from local sponsors as a result of the XC bevok nation we live in. The "race that measures all" has seen to that. 

Imagine if it was the other way around as it is in most other countries, with gravity orientated riding predominating. 

 

 

this may or may not be true because there is also a lot of "for show" in XCO where companies get their name on a jersey for a couple of grand in entry fees, cost price product or discounted labour for maintenance. There isn't a lot of money flowing around through riders personal sponsors until they get to a national elite level. may of the U23's below are sponsorred by their parents. Admittedly, the pot is bigger and therefore less than a e.g.  top 3 performance still delivers a return.

Even if it is true, its because a sponsor will see more value or synergy in XCO than DH. Many company's SHEQ departments will outright veto sponsorship of extreme sports due to risk of injury and death. Some scorecards will list it as a recordable event. So yes DH gets a raw deal, where Enduro would get a freerier pass. and XCO easy pass through. That's just how the world works and we really should be grateful for a company like Red Bull that actively seeks out high risks sports and showcases them.

[Jewbacca]

hahahaha 

This thread has escalated. 

World champs isn't for 'learning' it's for medal hunting. 

If you're upset because you weren't selected AND didn't hit the qualifying criteria then tiny violins and the saddest song in the world.

Does anyone here fighting for the cause really believe that CSA should send 'also rans' because principle or are they just being emotional because of the perceived plight of others through 'injustice'?

[Danger Dassie]

11 minutes ago, Jewbacca said:

hahahaha 
Class. 

This thread has escalated. 

World champs isn't for 'learning' it's for medal hunting. 

It's both and an opportunity worth taking advantage of.

If you're upset because you weren't selected AND didn't hit the qualifying criteria then tiny violins and the saddest song in the world.

Does anyone here fighting for the cause really believe that CSA should send 'also rans' because principle or are they just being emotional because of the perceived plight of others through 'injustice'?

No one is being "emotional" a number a good points have been raised with objective motivations. sans the sarcasm, violins and all. 
 
How YOU want to talk to people is a a reflection on you, something you were quick to snark about towards someone else a few days about their in person character. Either stick to the actual topic with a level of maturity or don't bother. 

 

[Jewbacca]

@Danger Dassie I've not been rude to or about anyone in particular.

The governing body has selected a team based on criteria and performance. The whole very argument is based on allowing people to go who didn't hit the criteria but 'Feel' they should be included because we have the slots.

The very thought of taking people who didn't qualify or get selected to go by the governing body is due to an emotional response on social media by those snubbed.

Anyway, I'm out. 

This isn't my fight, I didn't make the selection, nor have I been snubbed.

My opinion in obviously unpopular as I don't believe World Champs is a place for also rans knowing they are going to be also rans.

I also don't believe in on line petitions to overturn decisions that will ultimately cost someone a hefty chunk of money for very little return in the context of the competition 

❤️

[J Wakefield]

Greg is the only rider who should be going for South Africa in the discipline.
Selection was done correctly.
Good luck Greg bring it home. 

[chrisstafford20726@gmail.com]

One wonders why anyone would want to be an administrator when the backlash is this harsh? 
The vast majority of administrators involved in cycling and mtb in particular are volunteers and do it for the benefit of the riders. If they walk away from all of this the problems faced by mtb riders in SA would extend well beyond national team selection for elite DHI men. 

The administrators have to apply a predetermined rules framework that is no doubt monitored by SASCOC, and they can’t deviate. If anyone wants to change the framework then it would be best for them to get involved at administration level, right?

Let’s remember that it’s the administrators at all levels (national and provincial) that keep the wheels turning. Let’s appreciate them and do our homework before we start crucifying them. 

[Hairy]

22 hours ago, Irvin85 said:

Why is he not riding the UCI downhill events? Do he stand a chance of medaling? 

A flat 100m sprint track is a 100m flat sprint track.

Not all DH tracks are made equal, and the race in SA are nowhere near the level as that overseas.

 

[Headshot]

5 minutes ago, Hairy said:

A flat 100m sprint track is a 100m flat sprint track.

Not all DH tracks are made equal, and the race in SA are nowhere near the level as that overseas.

 

This segways back to my statement that DH racers from SA face bigger hurdles than their XC)/marathon/roadie counterparts. 

How many pro DH racers come to SA over summer to train here? Absolutely none or if any do, its not for training but promo work like Greg. Why not? Because we lack shuttle and chairlift assisted DH tracks of a suitable standard. Where do they go - places like New Zealand's South Island.

How many XCO racers including top names. come to Cape Town in particular to train - lots and lots. Why, because its terrain and trails are made for it. Nino. Keller and others are often here in summer. 

So, CSA and other punters on this forum including the XC coach, how are SA talents supposed to compete and meet criteria imposed by an organization that appears to hardly understands downhill racing given the dearth of training venues available to them in SA?

Far tooo many high horses being ridden by too many people quoting this and that from the CSA without understanding the context or the nature of DH racing in SA. 

[Headshot]

It means that the criteria that road/XC biased CSA have in place for selection in DH are probably poorly thought out in that they fail to take the famous "hurdles" and nature of DH racing as opposed to road and XC into account. 

 

https://bikenetwork.co.za/csa-dont-see-this-from-a-riders-point-of-view/

Edited July 17, 2024 by Headshot

[stringbean]

I understand all this but more importantly “what is his Argus time”

[Irvin85]

All I hear is the reasons why it is so difficult for them to qualify and get over to do the races, but then there is this unknown guy called Greg Minnaar, who with all the challenges mentioned that all the other SA guys faces some how managed to get into the major events and made his performances count for him to secure sponsors and help him to get to where he is now. If he managed to do all that he did what is the excuses of the other guys?

[DieselnDust]

3 hours ago, Headshot said:

This segways back to my statement that DH racers from SA face bigger hurdles than their XC)/marathon/roadie counterparts. 

How many pro DH racers come to SA over summer to train here? Absolutely none or if any do, its not for training but promo work like Greg. Why not? Because we lack shuttle and chairlift assisted DH tracks of a suitable standard. Where do they go - places like New Zealand's South Island.

How many XCO racers including top names. come to Cape Town in particular to train - lots and lots. Why, because its terrain and trails are made for it. Nino. Keller and others are often here in summer. 

So, CSA and other punters on this forum including the XC coach, how are SA talents supposed to compete and meet criteria imposed by an organization that appears to hardly understands downhill racing given the dearth of training venues available to them in SA?

Far tooo many high horses being ridden by too many people quoting this and that from the CSA without understanding the context or the nature of DH racing in SA. 

so what you're asking of CSA is to relax the criteria for athletes selection across the DH discipline due to being geographically and topographically disadvantaged?

Sidenote: Claiming CSA is Road and XCO biased is incorrect. The focus does go into disciplines where the participation levels are higher and that includes BMX. The Road, XCO/XCM and BMX discplines do attract much larger entries, produce more world standard athletes and yes, therefore will receive more attention and hence will also drive the quality barometer or standard that is applied. However bias implies a negative discrimination which is not correct. Selection criteria apply to all sporting disciplines and the performance expectation is applied similarly.

 

Back to relaxed selection criteria for DH. Current selection criteria templates are driven by the IOC and the UCI. This is to set a minimum level of skill for athletes to compete at the highest levels of sport, i.e. The World Championships and Olympic Games. If the bar is set too low then the organisers run a high risk of injury at the event. So the bar is set and  National Federations have to adopt or risk sending athletes that are below par. Some do in various sports, my reference to Eddie the Eagle refers, there are numerous other examples where a qualifying criteria was applied, the athlete met that but was still completely out of their depth.

In the DH case it does not appear to be competency issue but rather not meeting the criteria for reasons that have still not been articulated. I read a post this morning that WCDH only became aware of the selection criteria in March 2024 when these were published in December 2023. Why was there a delay? Then the dialogue for change only started? But CSA says the criteria are similar to that applied in 2022?

Then why did athletes intending to go to Worlds, not meet the selection criteria? The same article refers to allowing athletes to go because they are already in Europe. If they are there, why did they not participate in qualifying events over there? None of these questions are being answered so I'm checking out but with a rant of my own.

 

I actually feel like maybe I should join the hard done by bandwagon, since I feel severely discriminated against being  the sole coloured slalom white water kayaker and have no facilities to practice. SASCOC should surely make an exception and send me to the Olympics because I have the passion but will never qualify because I'm not in Europe and I don't have a local slalom series to prepare me. The Olympics will be a great place to learn and bring back skill...

 

 

 

Edited July 17, 2024 by DieselnDust

[Headshot]

2 minutes ago, DieselnDust said:

so what you're asking of CSA is to relax the criteria for athletes selection across the DH discipline due to being geographically and topographically disadvantaged?

Sidenote: Claiming CSA is Road and XCO biased is incorrect. The focus does go into disciplines where the participation levels are higher and that includes BMX. The Road, XCO/XCM and BMX discplines do attract much larger entries, produce more world standard athletes and yes, therefore will receive more attention and hence will also drive the quality barometer or standard that is applied.

 

Back to relaxed selection criteria for DH. Current selection criteria templates are driven by the IOC and the UCI. This is to set a minimum level of skill for athletes to compete at the highest levels of sport, i.e. The World Championships and Olympic Games. If the bar is set too low then the organisers run a high risk of injury at the event. So the bar is set and  National Federations have to adopt or risk sending athletes that are below par. Some do in various sports, my reference to Eddie the Eagle refers, there are numerous other examples where a qualifying criteria was applied, the athlete met that but was still completely out of their depth.

In the DH case it does not to be competency issue but rather not meeting the criteria for reasons that have still not been articulated. I read a post this morning that WCDH only became aware of the selection criteria in March 2024 when these were published in December 2023. Why was there a delay? Then the dialogue for change only started? But CSA says the criteria are similar to that applied in 2022?

Then why did athletes intending to go to Worlds, not meet the selection criteria? The same article refers to allowing athletes to go because they are already in Europe. If they are there, why did they not participate in qualifying events over there? None of these questions are being answered so I'm checking out but with a rant of my own.

 

I actually feel like maybe I should join the hard done by bandwagon, since I feel severely discriminated against being  the sole coloured slalom white water kayaker and have no facilities to practice. SASCOC should surely make an exception and send me to the Olympics because I have the passion but will never qualify because I'm not in Europe and I don't have a local slalom series to prepare me. The Olympics will be a great place to learn and bring back skill...

 

 

 

Stop, you're making me cry with your in no way relevant comparisons to play to the audience on this thread.  

[Headshot]

25 minutes ago, Irvin85 said:

All I hear is the reasons why it is so difficult for them to qualify and get over to do the races, but then there is this unknown guy called Greg Minnaar, who with all the challenges mentioned that all the other SA guys faces some how managed to get into the major events and made his performances count for him to secure sponsors and help him to get to where he is now. If he managed to do all that he did what is the excuses of the other guys?

Greg is 42, started racing when the R was about 3 to the dollar and now has a home in Andorra and full team support. He is super talented but the guys over there at the moment are also the best we have in SA at the moment, not some no hopers who can barely ride a bike, like most on this thread, me included. 

I'd like the biggest team of the best riders representing SA at the worlds. Why don't you? 

[Vishal72]

10 minutes ago, Headshot said:

Greg is 42, started racing when the R was about 3 to the dollar and now has a home in Andorra and full team support. He is super talented but the guys over there at the moment are also the best we have in SA at the moment, not some no hopers who can barely ride a bike, like most on this thread, me included. 

I'd like the biggest team of the best riders representing SA at the worlds. Why don't you? 

If the guys are not happy with the selection criteria, what selection policy would you suggest ?

these rules should not be subjective and should apply to everyone

There are 5 spots and Greg got 1, there are 6 other riders how do you decide who gets to go ?