Downhill Riders,including current SA National Champ, overlooked for World Champs

[Shebeen]

6 hours ago, Jewbacca said:

So I remember there was a similar argument surrounding our Hockey team a few years ago.... We had qualified for something but by default. 

SASCOC decided to say 'the men's hockey team will not be going to X despite having qualified because they are crap'

They didn't go.

No one made an online petition and no one shed big tears because the truth was, our team was rubbish and wouldn't have made it out of the groups.

It's a logical decision. I really have no idea why some people are so butthurt that CSA hasn't chosen to select people who aren't good enough to compete. 

well they did actually and it even got 15k signatures!

https://www.timeslive.co.za/news/south-africa/2015-11-17-petition-will-not-change-sascoc-policy/

 

Apples and pears really. Hockey and waterpolo should send both teams to every olympics. They are massive schoolsports, with very limited pro setups once you get to senior ranks.

[DieselnDust]

9 hours ago, Skubarra said:

Do they meet the criteria of the UCI? If not I don't know why this is a discussion, but if they do then back to my original question, what do CSA gain by having a more stringent criteria than the UCI? Is there an arrangement where UCI criteria is ambigious but local organisers are expected to be gatekeepers applying their own judgment? 

Technically they don’t. They haven’t met CSA selection criteria and therefore that of the UCI. Somebody has to be the gatekeeper or it’s a free for all.

[mazambaan]

While I love DH I have no dog in the fight but two comments.

1. Ideally someone should "replace" GM at some stage so at least one "under study" could be picked if this objective was focussed on. BMX is different but I understood that they threw a big effort (and money) into Sifiso and maybe a few others back in the day.

2. Sponsorship is key. Quite a few niche sports get key sponsors where they are wealthy and their family is involved (SA has had a number of bodyboarding world champs due to this; real unsung heroes IMHO). I personally think quite a number of people / organisations have made good money out of cycling, particularly "mountain biking" and they could plough more back in.

Some of the SA exclusions have just been petty and unfair (the very first men's hockey team exclusion was just racist politics IMHO). I hope the DH ones aren't and would love to see more SA participants.

[Danger Dassie]

It isn’t a free for all, it’s as far from anything like it. The only thing gatekeeping accomplishes is to deny taking advantage of the opportunities available. 
That has ramifications for future riders and the discipline. An administration can only ride the coattails of a single athlete’s success for so long with such a dogmatic approach. 

[Underachiever]

11 hours ago, BaGearA said:

Nobody wants to bring up the FACT that the riders asking for the exemption did NOT qualify.

 

And by saying that I'm somehow disparaging the riders.

 

Bowing out cause rationality is so far removed from what's constantly being asked here.

I'm reading all the arguments, some with clouded with emotion, with interest.

I work for a large corporate and the tendency to celebrate mediocrity is getting more. Sending the dimwits to the expert convention for a jolly, and getting nothing in return.  For the sake of development  

The schools advocate this culture quite hard.  Everyone is a winner.  I do understand the rationale.  Everyone cannot be a CEO, CFO, COO... someone needs to sweep the floor and those also needs praise for doing their best..

The principle and gatekeeping needs to be in place to maintain the standard 

So if you best is not good enough, you can't go, since you haven't qualified...

Try harder next year...

 

 

[Headshot]

10 hours ago, Shebeen said:

well they did actually and it even got 15k signatures!

https://www.timeslive.co.za/news/south-africa/2015-11-17-petition-will-not-change-sascoc-policy/

 

Apples and pears really. Hockey and waterpolo should send both teams to every olympics. They are massive schoolsports, with very limited pro setups once you get to senior ranks.

Exactly they did petition but we have fake news being spread here. Disappointing 

[Headshot]

48 minutes ago, Underachiever said:

I'm reading all the arguments, some with clouded with emotion, with interest.

I work for a large corporate and the tendency to celebrate mediocrity is getting more. Sending the dimwits to the expert convention for a jolly, and getting nothing in return.  For the sake of development  

The schools advocate this culture quite hard.  Everyone is a winner.  I do understand the rationale.  Everyone cannot be a CEO, CFO, COO... someone needs to sweep the floor and those also needs praise for doing their best..

The principle and gatekeeping needs to be in place to maintain the standard 

So if you best is not good enough, you can't go, since you haven't qualified...

Try harder next year...

 

 

What we also have in SA is a growing culture of irrational rules and regulations that condone bad administrative decisions and cover those who make them. I stand by my point that CSA are ill equipped to deal with DH. They don't understand it and their behavior does nothing for the riders.

Easy to say they shouldjust try again next year when they're already  battling to pay their way to make a go of it as it is. 

[Skubarra]

1 hour ago, DieselnDust said:

Technically they don’t. They haven’t met CSA selection criteria and therefore that of the UCI. Somebody has to be the gatekeeper or it’s a free for all.

"free for all" is not quite the situation here though? But even if it is a "free for all" you will have 6 guys show up and not make it past the untelevised qualifiers along with 2/3rds of the field. UCI doesn't seem to care so its hard for me to understand why this would bring shame on hubland and CSA.

Wouldn't seem like it but I actually really do not have a dog in this fight, so let me step out and stalk another thread 🤣.

[Irvin85]

2 minutes ago, Skubarra said:

"free for all" is not quite the situation here though? But even if it is a "free for all" you will have 6 guys show up and not make it past the untelevised qualifiers along with 2/3rds of the field. UCI doesn't seem to care so its hard for me to understand why this would bring shame on hubland and CSA.

Wouldn't seem like it but I actually really do not have a dog in this fight, so let me step out and stalk another thread 🤣.

I get what you are saying. No harm done to include them. 

My point of view is it should be a prestige event, and there should be pride and honor in representing your country at such a event and that should be earned. Not handed out just because there is slots available. 

That is it for me. 

[MORNE]

Can we just stop referring to some of these riders as dimwits or also rans haha? 
If you see what some of these people can do on a bike you will likely re-asses why you even try to turn a crank.

They are that good. You and I get better trying our best by taking their advice on weekends, riding their lines to go faster etc. And progress, but still be a minute slower down a 3minute track lol. Similarly, they need exposure to faster people than themselves to progress.

Competition is fierce…especially in something like DH where the difference between qualifying or not can be counted on one hand. Top ten in milliseconds over a 2min run. EVEN the GOAT has fallen short on many occasions due to how close it can be.

Anyway, it doesn't effect me really, but I wont call these guys ‘lower management’ being sent to ‘directors’ conferences. They are associates looking to make the step but are being held back because of the ‘oldboys club and nepotism’. (To play the comparison) 
 

Anyway, they’ll figure it out. They care enough and have the potential/talent. 
 

 

 

Edited July 18 by MORNE

[Underachiever]

28 minutes ago, MORNE said:

Can we just stop referring to some of these riders as dimwits or also rans haha? 
If you see what some of these people can do on a bike you will likely re-asses why you even try to turn a crank.

They are that good. You and I get better trying our best by taking their advice on weekends, riding their lines to go faster etc. And progress, but still be a minute slower down a 3minute track lol. Similarly, they need exposure to faster people than themselves to progress.

Competition is fierce…especially in something like DH where the difference between qualifying or not can be counted on one hand. Top ten in milliseconds over a 2min run. EVEN the GOAT has fallen short on many occasions due to how close it can be.

Anyway, it doesn't effect me really, but I wont call these guys ‘lower management’ being sent to ‘directors’ conferences. They are associates looking to make the step but are being held back because of the ‘oldboys club and nepotism’. (To play the comparison) 
 

Anyway, they’ll figure it out. They care enough and have the potential/talent. 
 

 

 

Hi Morne

I don't know any of these riders from a bar of soap.  I used a corporate example and tendency to illustrate a principle. I did not call or refer to them as dimwits. 

Oldboys club...and nepotism...eish that exists in probably all orgs is some shape or form.

Life isn't always fair.

But my motto in life is "never, ever give up" ,so I always try again!!!

 

Edited July 18 by Underachiever

[Skubarra]

19 minutes ago, Irvin85 said:

I get what you are saying. No harm done to include them. 

My point of view is it should be a prestige event, and there should be pride and honor in representing your country at such a event and that should be earned. Not handed out just because there is slots available. 

That is it for me. 

Looks to me in the current format - the prestige, pride, honour and all those great things comes into play when the top 60 qualifies for the televised semi-finals and onwards.

Before that its just qualification where the majority falls out anyway. 

Maybe prior to the introduction of the semis it was more relevant to do some gatekeeping on the qualification round? 🤷‍♂️

[DieselnDust]

Interesting that people will fight tooth and nail on social media to get to the World Champs but don’t follow or respect the process of getting there or what it stands for…

very interesting indeed 

Edited July 18 by DieselnDust

[Jewbacca]

1 hour ago, DieselnDust said:

Interesting that people will fight tooth and nail on social media to get to the World Champs but don’t follow or respect the process of getting there or what it stands for…

very interesting indeed 

What I see is that those who earned the spots are going and those who didn't earn the points or compete in point earning events now want to fill the spaces made by those already going.

It's a team SELECTION based on criteria, performance and guidelines.

The reasons for non selection are not personal, these guys simply didn't get selected because they didn't meet the criteria to be selected.

It's like failing varsity because you missed the attendance minimum and didn't attend any tuts but still managed to pass because the group project you didn't assist with got 98%. You fail because you did not hit the laid out criteria to pass

2 hours ago, Headshot said:

Exactly they did petition but we have fake news being spread here. Disappointing 

Huh? No one said they didn't petition. They didn't go. Reason given, they didn't qualify via the top tier qualification standards in world hockey as laid out by SASCOC 

SASCOC said that both teams need to qualify through the international standards and not via the back door 'continental qualification' to 'make up the numbers'. They didn't. They didn't go despite having a slot allocated as they did not meet the criteria laid out and agreed to by the various governing bodies

It's pretty similar

Edited July 18 by Jewbacca

[betaboy]

Well it’s a small squad but Gayton is driving this bus now… so best you buckle up. I foresee a new cost structure for CSA, let’s see if we can steer Sports out of the *** ….one pothole at a time! 🇿🇦👍🏻🤭

[Headshot]

31 minutes ago, Jewbacca said:

What I see is that those who earned the spots are going and those who didn't earn the points or compete in point earning events now want to fill the spaces made by those already going.

It's a team SELECTION based on criteria, performance and guidelines.

The reasons for non selection are not personal, these guys simply didn't get selected because they didn't meet the criteria to be selected.

It's like failing varsity because you missed the attendance minimum and didn't attend any tuts but still managed to pass because the group project you didn't assist with got 98%. You fail because you did not hit the laid out criteria to pass

Huh? No one said they didn't petition. They didn't go. Reason given, they didn't qualify via the top tier qualification standards in world hockey as laid out by SASCOC 

SASCOC said that both teams need to qualify through the international standards and not via the back door 'continental qualification' to 'make up the numbers'. They didn't. They didn't go despite having a slot allocated as they did not meet the criteria laid out and agreed to by the various governing bodies

It's pretty similar

Your post clearly states that there was no petition, or are you splitting hairs now and saying you weren't referring to the hard copy petition that was sent in, if there was one?