Munga 2021

[Eldron]

9 minutes ago, Shebeen said:

no an engineer, so I like data!

 

but this is pretty basic. it's a navigation race. and people can't seem to find this turnoff. Maybe they should spend some of the budget on a neon sign or something for the start of it. but seriously following breadcrumbs on a screen is not hard. It's near the bottom of the bo swaarmoed so you don't have to go all the way back up, it's about 4km and 70m up once you hit the big road (and obviously realise you've gone wrong)

Just letting the tracker run through at 4096 speed and ticking off the riders who missed this one, again. Apologies if any mistakes made here, just a quick peek. I'm not

Martie Joubert/Jaco Ferreira
Marco Ferdinandi
Dale de Kiewiet (huge detour but possibly had pulled out by then)
Sylvia du Raan (scratched due to time limit)
Werner Schmidt

The only who went back was Mireille Koster, but she missed the final cut-off by 90 minutes so got scratched. this cost her just 20-30 minutes

 

When you're fresh and rested following breadcrumbs is really easy - when you're sleep deprived, tired, unfocused, dehydrated, the moer in, all of the above is gets a little more challenging....

[Ozzie NL]

54 minutes ago, Shebeen said:

no an engineer, so I like data!

 

but this is pretty basic. it's a navigation race. and people can't seem to find this turnoff. Maybe they should spend some of the budget on a neon sign or something for the start of it. but seriously following breadcrumbs on a screen is not hard. It's near the bottom of the bo swaarmoed so you don't have to go all the way back up, it's about 4km and 70m up once you hit the big road (and obviously realise you've gone wrong)

Just letting the tracker run through at 4096 speed and ticking off the riders who missed this one, again. Apologies if any mistakes made here, just a quick peek. I'm not

Martie Joubert/Jaco Ferreira
Marco Ferdinandi
Dale de Kiewiet (huge detour but possibly had pulled out by then)
Sylvia du Raan (scratched due to time limit)
Werner Schmidt

The only who went back was Mireille Koster, but she missed the final cut-off by 90 minutes so got scratched. this cost her just 20-30 minutes

I have not ridden there so can't comment on how hard it is to see that trail / path to the left.

Mireille is my wife. I was on the phone to her as she went back to try and find the path and only when I assured her that it should be there she found it. That was in the dark and her brain was pretty mushy at the time but still ... clearly not very obvious

She also said that at other tricky points Alex had put some markers ... maybe that could have prevented some of the trouble

Edited December 7, 2021 by Ossie NL

[Shebeen]

53 minutes ago, Eldron said:

When you're fresh and rested following breadcrumbs is really easy - when you're sleep deprived, tired, unfocused, dehydrated, the moer in, all of the above is gets a little more challenging....

exactly, hence the skill of navigation deserves to be rewarded.

36 minutes ago, Ossie NL said:

I have not ridden there so can't comment on how hard it is to see that trail / path to the left.

Mireille is my wife. I was on the phone to here as she went back to try and find the path and only when I assured her that it should be there she found it. That was in the dark en her brain was pretty mushy at the time but still ... clearly not very obvious

She also said that at other tricky points Alex had put some markers ... maybe that could have prevented some of the trouble

She did the right thing, sorry it ended without an official finish but doing every inch is a damn good enough acievement in my book. Yes, navigation is a skill. I spent the weekend doing a 24hr adventure race (yes in that rain) trying to work out how to get through a forest with a map and compass and about 25m of vis in the dark downpour. i know a thing or two about going in the wrong direction.

it's a different story to following a gpx breadcrumb file, you might have snazzy head unit with turn by turn or just using your watch with very basic instructions. but the underlying fact remains the same - you need to remain on the route. Both for the reason that the route is there to keep it equal for all, and there could be permission/safety reasons if people start going all over the place.

I don't blame the riders for going wrong (they are already cross with themselves enough already!), but it is up to the race to enforce their own rules. They can either put up more signs or make people better navigators by enforcing their own rules.  or we can just talk about it again next year.

 

 

edit:

 

i think this is the turnoff

https://www.google.co.za/maps/@-33.3353667,19.4564493,3a,41.3y,241.17h,81.76t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sw_rxjMw66OqRYS_SzMsRLA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Edited December 7, 2021 by Shebeen
added map

[Spy007]

Up front i withdrew at 875km because my body gave in after tankwa 2019.

 

"The race is semi-supported meaning that riders will be provided with support from race officials and at race villages, but will not be permitted to have support along the route"

this issue came up before in previous races. people get family stopping a long the route with preferred food etc.

I guess each on to his own. but changing things will not make it the toughest race anymore. It is what it is because of how it is structured.

 

It takes a way from the race and the experience.

 

I understand the marketing side etc but like many i am scared this will become the norm. outside help and support. 

I missed turns not because they were not visible but because i went 102 hours with out sleep and was chasing shadows.

Only support we had was each other and towards the end the ER 24 Guys that as per rules had to keep a certain distance from us. Especially at night due to their lights.

I missed a water point and rode for 3 hours with no water in the dark. I can recount many stories that I experienced and that added to the challenge

Sutherland kitchen being closed when we got there at 11am, 1 hour before official cut off.

 

I learned and will be doing grit 2022 and then returning to finish

 

And looking at TL. i dont think people realize how remote you get out there alone in the dark. TL is last thing on your mind and if you really want to know just check the log sheet when you sign in.

 

You dont do the munga because it is in your comfort zone .

[Eldron]

34 minutes ago, Shebeen said:

exactly, hence the skill of navigation deserves to be rewarded.

She did the right thing, sorry it ended without an official finish but doing every inch is a damn good enough acievement in my book. Yes, navigation is a skill. I spent the weekend doing a 24hr adventure race (yes in that rain) trying to work out how to get through a forest with a map and compass and about 25m of vis in the dark downpour. i know a thing or two about going in the wrong direction.

it's a different story to following a gpx breadcrumb file, you might have snazzy head unit with turn by turn or just using your watch with very basic instructions. but the underlying fact remains the same - you need to remain on the route. Both for the reason that the route is there to keep it equal for all, and there could be permission/safety reasons if people start going all over the place.

I don't blame the riders for going wrong (they are already cross with themselves enough already!), but it is up to the race to enforce their own rules. They can either put up more signs or make people better navigators by enforcing their own rules.  or we can just talk about it again next year.

 

 

edit:

 

i think this is the turnoff

https://www.google.co.za/maps/@-33.3353667,19.4564493,3a,41.3y,241.17h,81.76t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sw_rxjMw66OqRYS_SzMsRLA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Life is far too short to be that binary in your thinking. If rules were rules half the pro peleton would be DQ'd for sticky bottles, drafting back to the bunch behind cars, drafting behind camera bikes, for handing children bottles etc.

If any Munga competitor got a phone call, text, got handed food/emergency blanket etc by their family etc they'd be DQ'd.

We shouldn't abandon rules completely but we shouldn't enforce them rigidly without thinking/morality either.

 

[Danger Dassie]

8 minutes ago, Eldron said:

Life is far too short to be that binary in your thinking. If rules were rules half the pro peleton would be DQ'd for sticky bottles, drafting back to the bunch behind cars, drafting behind camera bikes, for handing children bottles etc.

If any Munga competitor got a phone call, text, got handed food/emergency blanket etc by their family etc they'd be DQ'd.

We shouldn't abandon rules completely but we shouldn't enforce them rigidly without thinking/morality either.

 

Hence DPA, so that there is an objective application of a rule in the moment. Especially in an event of this nature, which lets face it, the knowledge base and experience lies with the organiser/RD and well outside the interpretations of CSA/UCI. 
Kind of like trail running and ASA. 

[walkerr]

19 minutes ago, Eldron said:

Life is far too short to be that binary in your thinking. If rules were rules half the pro peleton would be DQ'd for sticky bottles, drafting back to the bunch behind cars, drafting behind camera bikes, for handing children bottles etc.

If any Munga competitor got a phone call, text, got handed food/emergency blanket etc by their family etc they'd be DQ'd.

We shouldn't abandon rules completely but we shouldn't enforce them rigidly without thinking/morality either.

 

I dunno - we can debate texts/phone calls as a fine line, and something that varies in it's rulings between different unsupported events. But the Munga rules are pretty clear and explicit about physical support from family members or friends being barred, and being a potential DQable offence. OK, there are marginal cases, esp towards the tail of the field, and in isolated instances that don't materially impact the event or standings. But if the general principle isn't enforced, then the "self reliance" / "unsupported" ethos goes out the window, and what was a mega tough individual challenge starts to stray into being a team event.

Edited December 7, 2021 by walkerr

[Eldron]

25 minutes ago, walkerr said:

I dunno - we can debate texts/phone calls as a fine line, and something that varies in it's rulings between different unsupported events. But the Munga rules are pretty clear and explicit about physical support from family members or friends being barred, and being a potential DQable offence. OK, there are marginal cases, esp towards the tail of the field, and in isolated instances that don't materially impact the event or standings. But if the general principle isn't enforced, then the "self reliance" / "unsupported" ethos goes out the window, and what was a mega tough individual challenge starts to stray into being a team event.

So which is it? Do we enforce the rules, the fine lines, the marginal cases, the debatable rules or the general principle?

Yes that was said tongue in cheek. 

I agree with you on the unsupported nature. I did an ultra event across Holland - phones were banned and you only had the official gps tracker you were given for guidance (complete with SOS button). Back up on the route was completely banned. That is the right way to do it in my book. 

 

 

 

[Shebeen]

2 hours ago, Shebeen said:

I think this is impossible to police, and the advantage is negligible.

Yes it's nice to know where other people are but what do you do with that information? You maybe leave a bit earlier so they don't see you in transition. they still get there and see the sign in/out times.

You both still need to push a crank around with your legs - drafting is a much bigger issue and easier to enforce (if that's what you want) 

 

 

30 minutes ago, Eldron said:

Life is far too short to be that binary in your thinking. If rules were rules half the pro peleton would be DQ'd for sticky bottles, drafting back to the bunch behind cars, drafting behind camera bikes, for handing children bottles etc.

If any Munga competitor got a phone call, text, got handed food/emergency blanket etc by their family etc they'd be DQ'd.

We shouldn't abandon rules completely but we shouldn't enforce them rigidly without thinking/morality either.

 

You'll see I totally agree with not worrying about the phone messages/outside contacts. if anything they're a distraction to riders (one rider i knew just switched his whatsapp off totally). The issue of drafting has been raised before, it remains unresolved i guess.

 

but ja. when the prize money is ~R220k for first prize i'd expect the stakes to be higher. maybe just me, but quite a fuss was raised just the other day with the first over the line going off piste by following the lead vehicle and walking away with nada.

 

[Eldron]

4 minutes ago, Shebeen said:

 

You'll see I totally agree with not worrying about the phone messages/outside contacts. if anything they're a distraction to riders (one rider i knew just switched his whatsapp off totally). The issue of drafting has been raised before, it remains unresolved i guess.

 

but ja. when the prize money is ~R220k for first prize i'd expect the stakes to be higher. maybe just me, but quite a fuss was raised just the other day with the first over the line going off piste by following the lead vehicle and walking away with nada.

 

I agree with you on that - route deviation and not getting back onto the route where you left it is a DQ. Downhill is a great example of that.

Edit: Drafting is a tough one - I agree it should be banned to make it completely mano e mano (and womano e womano) but that is almost impossible to enforce.

Edited December 7, 2021 by Eldron

[walkerr]

Again though, the rules on drafting are stated with absolute clarity in the Munga rule book - there's no wiggle room in the wording. Whether they get enforced fully every year, that's another matter. But there's no ambiguity about what is allowed. Up to RV1 drafting is allowed, beyond RV1 it isn't.

Edited December 7, 2021 by walkerr

[Shebeen]

40 minutes ago, Danger Dassie said:

Hence DPA, so that there is an objective application of a rule in the moment. Especially in an event of this nature, which lets face it, the knowledge base and experience lies with the organiser/RD and well outside the interpretations of CSA/UCI. 
Kind of like trail running and ASA. 

ok cool. except in this case I would say the DPA is subjective. The rules are black and white on this.

Quote

12. RACE ROUTE
• All riders have to follow the designated Race route and may not deviate therefrom in any
circumstances whatsoever.
• If a rider inadvertently leaves the Race route, he has to return to the Race route at the same
point at which he left it.

 

Maybe I'm sounding pretty harsh on the race admin, I don't want to be. I'd love to see this race grow into the million dollar event it first launched as. 

Kevin Evans takes a shortcut on a switchback at the epic, HOUR PENALTY

              no one f#$% with shortcuts at the epic in future

Burry gets a wheel from Max in the epic - gets time penalty and loses the yellow -

              no one F@#$ with outside asisstance at Epic in the future.

I've said more than enough on this already, won't flog it further. but if the same sh11t happens next year again, i'll be vocal again.

 

12. RACE ROUTE
• All riders have to follow the designated Race route and may not deviate therefrom in any
circumstances whatsoever.
• If a rider inadvertently leaves the Race route, he has to return to the Race route at the same
point at which he left it.
 

[Shebeen]

6 minutes ago, walkerr said:

Again though, the rules on drafting are stated with absolute clarity in the Munga rule book - there's no wiggle room in the wording. Whether they get enforced fully every year, that's another matter. But there's no ambiguity about what is allowed. Up to RV1 drafting is allowed, beyond RV1 it isn't.

Well then I hope this pic from the fb page is from before RV1

 

[walkerr]

23 minutes ago, Shebeen said:

Well then I hope this pic from the fb page is from before RV1

Like I said - the rules are clear, enforcement is another matter. FWIW - can't spot any clearly identifiable landmarks to say whether that was before or after RV1. If it was after, it's a clear breach. If before, it's fine.

Edit - note though, the penalty for drafting is a special case. It's not a DQ or a time penalty, it just makes you ineligible for a top 10 place. So as long as none of these riders were top 10, then no action would have been needed.

Edited December 7, 2021 by walkerr

[River Rat]

I must say I quite like the idea that there's an element of discretion written into the race rules in terms of letter of the law versus spirit of the competition. My guess is that if it was a rules only approach there would be a whole lot of disqualified finishers who actually gained no real advantage from their breaking of the rules. All though rooting for one her close competitors I had no issue with the sanction dished out to MJ it just seemed right. However, I do recognise that a precedent has been set and this could come back to bite race admin. I don't think I would ever want to be in the position where I have to break the news to a physically depleted but mentally elated  finisher that their last 119 hours 59 minutes and 59 seconds of effort was all for nought thanks to an indiscretion that happen 2 days ago.

[DIPSLICK]

My non cyclist wife woke me up and told me my mate is off course 

I don’t know the secret handshake rules, as clearly most of us are Dot watchers not participates 

not 5 min later I received 3 more sms Vetty is off course

my first response was to sms him  , as of 23:35 now/today it’s not been opened 

yes I know you don’t have to open it to read it, but I do know when he is on line and not, 

end of the day there is decent prize money involved and rules must be followed 

it is extremely hard to police over 1100 plus kms, as all events I’m sure they will learn and progress and adapt

What I’ve taken from the event is

it inspires 

it makes US  want to be legends 

it draws crowds and followers no other event has managed to draw

out of all the riders, what I take is under these ridiculous times we are all trying to survive in they hosted an awesome event