La Vuelta a España 2023

[Underachiever]

5 minutes ago, MongooseMan said:

This is an interesting one, and something I've been grappling with.

Should you be "given" a grand tour? No

Does a grand tour winner do so solely on their own effort? No, they have domestiques pulling them up mountains, protecting them, helping them when they're low, covering attacks, etc.

 

I feel Sepp is kind of in this weird grey zone where he has no domestiques who can help him, and the 2 guys who could help him are arguably stronger than him right now. To say he must with Vuelta on his own strength is something of a double standard.

But: Most of the reason they're stronger than him is because HE pulled them up mountains in the Giro and the TDF this year, and last year, and the year before that.

 

Long story short, I don't know, and I'm not 100% sure JV know.

Today will tell, they can't hide on the mountains today. Either they ride for Sepp, or they drop him.

This...

[Bub Marley]

You can give handouts for stage wins. You can’t gift someone a grand tour win. I understand he’s a teammate who’s helped them over the years but we’re talking about a winning a grand tour. Both Roglic and Vingegaard will be thinking about their legacy here. For me the winner of a grand tour should be the strongest rider over three weeks. You have to earn that and at the moment I think it’s clear that both of them are stronger than Kuss. As much as I want Kuss to win and I will be rooting for him, he needs to prove that he’s the best by staying with the other 2 when they attack the next mountain. 

[MongooseMan]

Can we all agree we just want Sepp to win the stage today, dropping the other bees on the way?

[bleedToWin]

Staying with Kuss when a rival attacks to pull him back would be gifting him the tour, that's not what anyone expects.

Keeping your three podium riders together once all rivals are dropped is not a gift. It's just sensible team riding.

Letting the break go today to remove the incentive for GC riders attacking for stage wins so that the top 10 remains as is would be sensible tactics. 

Allowing a GC showdown today so that "the road decides" is pandering to the two leaders.

Suggesting that a rider who has beaten ALL of his rivals should now defend alone against his own team mates before he "deserves" to win is ridiculous...

Yes they are stronger. Yes Kuss got his lead from a break raid not from outperforming against them. Yes, if the rivals were stronger and able to put JV under pressure they would have needed Kuss to revert to his usual role. The cards fell the way they did and it's a team sport. Kuss deserves the win.

[TheoG]

15 minutes ago, MongooseMan said:

Can we all agree we just want Sepp to win the stage today, dropping the other bees on the way?

Agree 200% !!!!

But, those two are looking fn strong ... ☺️

[Underachiever]

On 8/26/2023 at 8:39 PM, Meezo said:

Remco again proving why we "love" him so much

Well, well, well.  2 weeks ago we were worried about the little brat...

Thank goodness the debate and rage have moved on to where we are now....

Will the "good guy" get screwed over by his buddies or will he prevail?

Go Seppie!!! #SEPPtember

[babse]

Okes letting netflix and emotions getting there better here. You guys seems to want this more than Kuss himself. 😆

Yesterday he clearly jumped onto the radio as soon as he was feeling the heat. I'd smaak for him to win but not gifted.

Maybe he could pull it off in 1 of the next 5 consecutive GTs he'll be riding. Haha

Maybe Kuss is better off staying the super domestique (he himself admits) and he'll be better off not winning a GT!? 

Happy to let this play out whist going full gas to the finish. 

It's been entertaining AF even with JVs dominance.

 

[SwissVan]

12 hours ago, Underachiever said:

I don't care about anything, team work, team orders, team tactics....whateva...

I am gonna be really, really really P1ssed off if Jonas/Rog are going to ride Sepp into the ground.

WTF happened to good ole "doing the right thing"!!!  

THIS

Forget all the over analysis paralysis, it’s simple:

Sepp got screwed by his team, prima donna, winegurd and JV DS.

I hope JV make it right today and ride for Sepp, with a +/- 4 minute lead it should be easy.

 

[shaper]

[Dirt Tracker]

50 minutes ago, bleedToWin said:

Staying with Kuss when a rival attacks to pull him back would be gifting him the tour, that's not what anyone expects.

That's pretty much Sepps 9-5 job there for the team leader in both Its this year. Ride on the front, cover attacks and pull whoever is on your team and leader / in front / in the jersey back up if they are struggling. That's called team work, and not normally called gifting if you're doing it for Roglic or Jonas. 

The simplest thing for me is you don't attack your team mates for your own whats and you definitely don't attack them if that team mate is in the red jersey as race leader. It's not gifting it's helping the person currently winning the race and helping him defend the jersey. There was no one up the road, no GC danger, no team mate was in a car crash as an excuse to go for the stage. Just the finish line. Sepp has been there as the last guy for both of them this year and helped each of them to win a GT this year. No one wins a GT solo. Kudos to Landa yesterday. 

It just looks plain weird. Jumbo are looking for a major sponsor as well and at this rate they'll be the only team I can think of who puts 1, 2 & 3 on the podium after a stellar Grand Tour and still have damaged their brand / reputation. Want to stick your name on that? 

The whole 'we let the road decide' is a non decision. It smacks of the DS' not being able to manage the situation and dropping the mic. Sure you have strong personalities it's your job to manages those personalities and egos. 

Roglic has already stated he want's to go for GC in the tour in '24, he's been chatting to Trek, Jonas is defending leader. Maybe it's just an audition for Roglic for JV or who ever is scouting about. 

[Prince Albert Cycles]

Lots of nice views here .

Reminds me of Nathaniel’s grandmother who said to him “ I don’t understand what you are doing but it is beautiful “

[TheoG]

Bottom line, there is an argument for both sides of this story.

I'm going to reserve judgement for after todays stage.  All intensions/plans will be crystal clear after today ...

[Meezo]

At the end of the day cycling is the winner 

[Hilton.]

 

I'm just going to leave this here ...

Daniel Martinez urged Egan Bernal on during a moment of crisis at the Giro, and issued a different message of support on Monday

[lechatnoir]

4 minutes ago, Hilton. said:

 

I'm just going to leave this here ...

Daniel Martinez urged Egan Bernal on during a moment of crisis at the Giro, and issued a different message of support on Monday

the key difference is that Martinez wasn't a few seconds out from the lead.

But you make a very good point anyway.

I see the current tactics as a good way of dropping JV into the same bucket as the rest of the villains.

I see JV's main Vuelta goal as winning it as comprehensively as possible, which they achieved the day Remco flopped. It's going to be fascinating how this plays out from here.

I think I speak for everyone when I suggest that this year's racing has been an absolute treat. The classics were great, monuments to date were incredible, the GT's, world champs, it's all been thoroughly entertaining. Cycling certainly has won 2023. This is a good thing.

[Dirt Tracker]

Just heard an interview with Mark Reef Car 1 DS of JV at the Vuelta.

"If Jonas has already said somethings like this that also means that he........ huh....... might help.... errr.... him....  in a certain situation....  that is something that we might see"

#gotyourbackbro 🤣