Carrying while cycling

[Shebeen]

2 hours ago, Martin PJ said:

Lots of information about what happened on this old thread.

I wonder what happened to the legal case here.

Great post near the end of this one, which is still relevant:

 

  

On 9/5/2016 at 9:07 PM, Harryn said:

The general “gung ho-ness” of this thread worries me, so I thought I would weigh in on the general state of jubilation that the “cyclist won.” I assume that this will make me somewhat unpopular – so be it.

 

 

 

 

My concern is that the level of anger at the crimes to which we fall victim daily, seems to have engendered a perception that the use of fatal force is legally justified in every single circumstance. This is not the case.

 

 

 

 

 

I am not going to comment on this particular incident. The facts are not known, and I am not going to delve into conjecture.

 

 

 

 

 

That said, I thought it would be helpful (future reference) to attempt to unpack the requirements for self-defence. But,  do not construe this post as being legal advice – it is most assuredly not.

 

 

 

 

 

The general rule is that if you are the victim of an unlawful attack upon your person, property or another recognised legal interest, you may resort to reasonable force to repel such an attack. Any harm or damage inflicted upon an aggressor in the course of such private defence will not be  unlawful. This is the principle, but as is almost always the case in law, it is not  that simple.

 

 

 

 

 

The ambit of private defence (known colloquially as self-defence) is not unlimited. The requirements for a successful plea of private defence are divided into two main categories.

 

 

 

 

 

The first set of requirements are in respect of the attack. They are:-

 

 

 

 

 

1. The attack must be a positive commission or an act of omission;

 

 

2. The attack must have already commenced or be imminent. This means that if the victim has the time or the opportunity to seek other non-lethal / non-violent / (or less violent) forms of protection, he must do so. Pre-emptive attacks are not permissible. Fear alone is not enough to justify a defence;

 

 

3. The attack must be upon a legally protectable interest (life, limb, property);

 

 

4. The attack must be unlawful. (eg. you cannot defend yourself against lawful arrest).

 

 

 

 

 

The second set of requirements relate to the actual defence. The rules here are:-

 

 

 

 

 

1. The defence must be directed towards the attacker;

 

 

2. It must be a conscious self-defence action;

 

 

3. The defence must be specifically aimed at protecting a legal interest;

 

 

4. The defence must be necessary to avert the attack. A person is justified in acting in defence only if the attack cannot be avoided in any other way – it must be the only means available for warding off the attack. Where the threat is of personal injury, self-defence by means of force is not permissible if the threat can be avoided by means of escape or retreat.

 

 

5. The defence must be a reasonable response to the attack. The force used to defend against the attack must be proportional to the attack.  Excessive force will render the victim subject to prosecution / conviction.

 

 

6. The means used by the victim must not be more damaging than is necessary to prevent the danger / assault. 

 

 

As the far the protection of one’s property is concerned, one may use force (including, where appropriate, deadly force) in order to protect ones property. However, the use of deadly force to protect property is highly controversial and problematic. The right to life is constitutionally protected - so I would say that it not reasonable or proportionate to kill a thief to protect your ownership in your bike and your  IPhone, if your life is not at imminent risk.

 

 

 

 

 

Acknowledgment:: the legal requirements for private defence as set out above are as stipulated by Jonathan Burchell in his book, Principles of Criminal Law (4th edition, 2015, Juta) at pages  117 – 135.

 

 

[The Ouzo]

26 minutes ago, Shebeen said:

I wonder what happened to the legal case here.

Great post near the end of this one, which is still relevant:

 

  

 

you know whats really sad about this, that was 2016, 8 years later and its much much worse out there.

[Wyatt Earp]

1 hour ago, Captain Fastbastard Mayhem said:

Dude! Long time no speak, hope you and the fam are well, man.

 

100% here here. Freak, I remember when I was taken for a joyride in my own citi golf back in 2007... Wasn't a lekker experience. Gun to the head for the whole time, luckily I got let out on the side of the freeway after they'd had their fun. 4 blokes, 3 knives and a gun. Hijacked while delivering pizza, of all things.... No way I could have done anything.

All good.

My son turned 20 today, life has flown fast.

Hope all is good your side.

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

1 hour ago, Wyatt Earp said:

All good.

My son turned 20 today, life has flown fast.

Hope all is good your side.

Jeeeepers creepers. Happy birthday to the not so little bastard. And it feels like only yesterday when you had people telling you you shouldn't be taking him to see a movie...

Mine's now almost 12. Time does indeed fly. Glad to hear you're still kicking and screaming, man.

Edited May 17 by Captain Fastbastard Mayhem

[MORNE]

2 hours ago, Captain Fastbastard Mayhem said:

Hijacked while delivering pizza, of all things.... No way I could have done anything.

Heathen…Ninja Turtles is a documentary, you just didn't believe !

 

 

[Wyatt Earp]

1 hour ago, Captain Fastbastard Mayhem said:

Jeeeepers creepers. Happy birthday to the not so little bastard. And it feels like only yesterday when you had people telling you you shouldn't be taking him to see a movie...

Mine's now almost 12. Time does indeed fly. Glad to hear you're still kicking and screaming, man.

Damn 

Time flies indeed.

Yup, he is a big boy now, 6 ft.2 and very well trained.

Studies super hard and very focused, we are well blessed.

[Duane_Bosch]

I've recently started the process. Done the tests. Done the shoot. Competency is in progress.

Regarding carrying whilst riding I think that would be a big no for me. Concealment is an issue and if you can conceal in a backpack or maybe a chest rig then getting to the weapon in a timeous fashion when the need arises is probably impossible.

When my wife and I run it's with a Malinois tethered to my waist. Handling him and a firearm would also be an impossibility. 
To all the folk that are "anti gun" I have some bad news for you. If you pay ADT or some such company for alarm monitoring and armed response then you are not anti gun. You are merely outsourcing the responsibility of having a gun to an armed response company. 

[V18]

@Duane_Boschhave a look at chest packs. SW holsters and taakmag and helicon tech. They're not quite slimline and inconspicuous enough for me... Yet. But they are fast. Very fast. And ideally located for retention. But when I see one I still think... Gun. 

[peepeekaitjie]

This is how I pack my heat

 

[Duane_Bosch]

Just now, peepeekaitjie said:

This is how I pack my heat

 

For the first time ever a lefty makes sense. 😁

 

[V18]

1 hour ago, peepeekaitjie said:

This is how I pack my heat

 

Stealthy! Where it's it? 

[ChrisF]

16 minutes ago, V18 said:

Stealthy! Where it's it? 

 

All he need now is a camo finish to the holster ... 😋

[MORNE]

What a gem🤣

^Parental discretion advised.  

Edited May 18 by MORNE

[MORNE]

15 hours ago, V18 said:

 

hey jy!
Slow week at the office?

Gaan neem nog  prentjies van die goed wat mense in hulle gat op druk, dis baie meer interessant!
 Plus, julle klomp kos way te veel om tyd te mors op hierdie k@k. 😋

 

Edited May 18 by MORNE

[V18]

1 hour ago, MORNE said:

hey jy!
Slow week at the office?

Gaan neem nog  prentjies van die goed wat mense in hulle gat op druk, dis baie meer interessant!
 Plus, julle klomp kos way te veel om tyd te mors op hierdie k@k. 😋

 

If only. Meestal paeds/onco/thoracics die week. Geen foreign bodies. Le sigh. 

En hierdie threads is te veel van 'n gem! Elke reaksie (including joune) gee my 'n klein serotonin boost!

[V18]

Good discussion. Esp regarding home defence. Now. Back to the topic at hand. 

Carrying whilst out on the bike. 

I would be keen if it is: readily accessible, concealed, secured, safe (trigger covered)  and most importantly accompanied by a reliable and instinctively accessible plan A (pepperspray Velcro'd to left shoulder strap). 

Any solutions? 

Current chest packs seem bulky. Iwb will likely print. Leg bag is obvious. Vests too warm in summer. Belly holsters sweaty and droopy. 

Prolly some iteration of a custom chest pack then. Can double up as essentials cargo space. Maybe manufactures can look into this.

Untill then, pepperspray and good insurance will do just fine for me.