Downhill Riders,including current SA National Champ, overlooked for World Champs

[Shebeen]

23 minutes ago, Jewbacca said:

Huh? No one said they didn't petition. They didn't go. Reason given, they didn't qualify via the top tier qualification standards in world hockey as laid out by SASCOC 

correction, you actually did. highlighted in bold for a second time below.

20 hours ago, Jewbacca said:

So I remember there was a similar argument surrounding our Hockey team a few years ago.... We had qualified for something but by default. 

SASCOC decided to say 'the men's hockey team will not be going to X despite having qualified because they are crap'

They didn't go.

No one made an online petition and no one shed big tears because the truth was, our team was rubbish and wouldn't have made it out of the groups.

It's a logical decision. I really have no idea why some people are so butthurt that CSA hasn't chosen to select people who aren't good enough to compete. 

I think the comparison with hockey from Rio is perfect here. Our hockey team is unlikely to ever win an olympic medal in the near future, but it's a popular (with rugby injuries) and growing school sport. Does it serve a purpose to send the senior teams to the Olympics even though they probably won't get a medal?

I'd make the case that our hockey squad going to the games benefits the local game big time, and the indirect effects down the line from higher levels of skill, training, coaching and (yes) gees around the sport will raise the standard of the sport.

Looking back at Rio, the 12th ranked hockey team didn't go, but the 61st ranked soccer team did. They came bottom of their group and didn't score a single goal in 3 games. It would be hard to measure if it was worthwhile sending them, I'd argue that olympic soccer is just another tournament, for hockey it is huge and the benefit far greater.

In that background, it's really just a simple question. What's best for the sport of DH in south africa? Allowing riders to go to world champs on their own dime or sticking to your criteria and only a handful go? I have my own answer there.

[Jewbacca]

2 minutes ago, Shebeen said:

correction, you actually did. highlighted in bold for a second time below.

I think the comparison with hockey from Rio is perfect here. Our hockey team is unlikely to ever win an olympic medal in the near future, but it's a popular (with rugby injuries) and growing school sport. Does it serve a purpose to send the senior teams to the Olympics even though they probably won't get a medal?

I'd make the case that our hockey squad going to the games benefits the local game big time, and the indirect effects down the line from higher levels of skill, training, coaching and (yes) gees around the sport will raise the standard of the sport.

Looking back at Rio, the 12th ranked hockey team didn't go, but the 61st ranked soccer team did. They came bottom of their group and didn't score a single goal in 3 games. It would be hard to measure if it was worthwhile sending them, I'd argue that olympic soccer is just another tournament, for hockey it is huge and the benefit far greater.

In that background, it's really just a simple question. What's best for the sport of DH in south africa? Allowing riders to go to world champs on their own dime or sticking to your criteria and only a handful go? I have my own answer there.

You're right, sorry, I'm wrong about the petition. But the point is they didn't go because they did not meet the criteria laid out and agreed upon by the governing bodies.

That is the point.

Don't change the point because you have 'found me out' on something irrelevant

As Headshot has accused me of doing, that's splitting hairs and isn't relevant to MY point or the point of the thread. 

I'm sorry for the confusion and I am wrong THERE

But it doesn't change the actual status, precedent or history.

Agreed terms of participation, qualification and competitive standard not met. You don't go 

It's a privilege given to those who earned it, not a right because you 'believe' you should fill slots earned by other people

[J Wakefield]

On 7/17/2024 at 1:30 PM, SwissVan said:

I can’t answer your question about Greg but I do believe that racers (any discipline) need to spend at least an entire season overseas travelling and living the racers life to build up their skill, fitness and experience. 
 

I’ve said it before, if I win the euro lotto I would buy a farmhouse somewhere in EU where talented Saffa cyclists could base themselves at no cost to themselves so they can come and stick a toe in the water here…..

Coming over for one event like WC is not enough, this policy has been tried and it does not work.

Cement would go further than a farmhouse. 

[RiverInTheRoad]

You don't grow the sport with this elitist attitude. If we have empty slots let's give the riders an opportunity. 

The notable riders that were left out are still EXTREMELY talented people that have comitted themselves to the sport and persued it professionally. 

Not sending Theo is crazy, he has shown that he is close to WC top 20 speeds. 

If all countries only send the very best there will be 30 riders at the event.

[sias]

20 minutes ago, RiverInTheRoad said:

Not sending Theo is crazy, he has shown that he is close to WC top 20 speeds. 

Yet he did not get enough points to qualify, did he, despite having several opportunities and races to get it? He has an appeal in process.

There is much more to this going on behind the scenes than what you see on social media and some publications - don't take everything at face value.

Edited July 18 by sias

[MORNE]

Had another random thought on this thread while sitting in traffic for 2 hours between N-burbs and town yesterday…

Even ignoring raw unadulterated skill/talent…you also have to realise that the top 20 riders/teams etc ride prototype equipment, suspension  that hasn't even seen the light of day. That alone puts even a normal ‘sponsored’ rider that just gets given a MY2024 bike up against it. 

Its like taking your yamaha R1 and entering a motoGP race and expecting to finish on the same lap, or Its pitching up Lemans 24h as a wildcard entry and expecting you will compete with Toyota, Ferrari, Porsche factory teams. You wont, even with Elon’s credit card in your pocket and Verstappen, Hamilton, Alonso in the car. It wont happen. You will plonk around at the back and finish 15 laps off the lead. BUT, you will gain invaluable race experience you can build on every year.

DH is widely considered the formula 1 of mtb racing purely for this reason. Its basically a manufacturers testing ground. ‘Win on sunday, sell on monday’. The amount of prototyping voodoo happening at the front on any given weekend means if you pitch up even on a current year retail version of a bike, your kit is likely already 2 years out of date lol.

Have a look at whats happening on the Bruni’s handlebars, suspension or how Greg starts a weekend with telemetry kit attached to almost everything,  or how Amoury’s Magic Mary looks nothing like the one you and I can buy in the shop lol. There are drivetrains that dont exist in any retail catalogue…

It all makes a difference and also means that breaking into that field on your vanilla kit from the ass end of the world is so much harder and more of an achievement if you can do so.

[J Wakefield]

Please excuse this post as I have not read the last pages in detail but did any of the riders actually qualify to go other than Greg? 

If not, then there is zero argument here. 

This will be a unpopular here but Outside the top 100 at a DHWC is not near the quality needed for a World Championship. 

South Africa has always sent riders that have no place to a level event of this nature and mostly cause "if you pay you can go" mentality, the results are always the same and then its "about learning and they gained experience" Who gained? the 1 person who went and was 2min slower and never goes back again or never progresses? 

Same now with the Junior World MX. Self funded, riders who could go went 1 rider qualified. The rest were way off on lap times but "what an experience" "learnt so much" outcome.

As I said this will be unpopular but this is not the Argus and athletes wont progress to the standard if this is always the approach and this has shown over the years.  You not within the criteria or within a time you dont go. 
 

[Jewbacca]

12 minutes ago, J Wakefield said:

Please excuse this post as I have not read the last pages in detail but did any of the riders actually qualify to go other than Greg? 

If not, then there is zero argument here. 

This will be a unpopular here but Outside the top 100 at a DHWC is not near the quality needed for a World Championship. 

South Africa has always sent riders that have no place to a level event of this nature and mostly cause "if you pay you can go" mentality, the results are always the same and then its "about learning and they gained experience" Who gained? the 1 person who went and was 2min slower and never goes back again or never progresses? 

Same now with the Junior World MX. Self funded, riders who could go went 1 rider qualified. The rest were way off on lap times but "what an experience" "learnt so much" outcome.

As I said this will be unpopular but this is not the Argus and athletes wont progress to the standard if this is always the approach and this has shown over the years.  You not within the criteria or within a time you dont go. 
 

I've asked this a few times

Who out of those NOT going earned UCI points towards the allotted slots, as it looks as though the available places have been earned by those already going.

No one seems to want to answer 

I would also ask, those not going, who of them is still young enough with enough dedication, talent and discipline to still be spotted by a big team and race at the top level?

Before everyone says Theo, he is 30 odd and while I'm not ageist, most teams won't invest in a 30 year old rider to develop

So why take riders who have realistically missed their chance at the big time to learn to race in the big time?

One thing I learned was that no matter how loyal we are to our country and want the best for our country, we don't always have the talent pool in every sport to fill the shoes of generational outgoing talents across sport genres and that's ok.

Again, this is not a personal attack on anyone, I'm sure they are rad, but going to learn and going for experience is different to going for a jol, which is not the point of World Champs

 

 

[Headshot]

12 minutes ago, J Wakefield said:

Please excuse this post as I have not read the last pages in detail but did any of the riders actually qualify to go other than Greg? 

If not, then there is zero argument here. 

This will be a unpopular here but Outside the top 100 at a DHWC is not near the quality needed for a World Championship. 

South Africa has always sent riders that have no place to a level event of this nature and mostly cause "if you pay you can go" mentality, the results are always the same and then its "about learning and they gained experience" Who gained? the 1 person who went and was 2min slower and never goes back again or never progresses? 

Same now with the Junior World MX. Self funded, riders who could go went 1 rider qualified. The rest were way off on lap times but "what an experience" "learnt so much" outcome.

As I said this will be unpopular but this is not the Argus and athletes wont progress to the standard if this is always the approach and this has shown over the years.  You not within the criteria or within a time you dont go. 
 

John I think you're showing your lack of knowledge of the sport of downhill racing. At least two or three of the riders not permitted to go would never be two minutes behind the winner. Who gained you say .. well the sport gains because it provides an incentive for other riders to up their game and try to get there too.

No help given by CSA and little if any interest in the sport from sponsors and the average marathon/gravel riding SA public so its an uphill battle, as can be seen from your and the other punters here who seem to look down on the downhill racers from their lycra clad pedestals. Greg has mentioned time an again the lack of recognition his achievements have received in SA and that trend is clearly not about to change, given the attitude to up and coming racers displayed here.

The WC  is like the  CTCT - said nobody, ever? That's ludicrous. 

There are many examples of breakout performances that occur in DH racing because suddenly everything clicks, especially for the younger riders. 

SA is the poorer for not having all its best riders at the WC. 

[Gnarly]

18 minutes ago, J Wakefield said:

Please excuse this post as I have not read the last pages in detail but did any of the riders actually qualify to go other than Greg? 

If not, then there is zero argument here. 

This will be a unpopular here but Outside the top 100 at a DHWC is not near the quality needed for a World Championship. 

South Africa has always sent riders that have no place to a level event of this nature and mostly cause "if you pay you can go" mentality, the results are always the same and then its "about learning and they gained experience" Who gained? the 1 person who went and was 2min slower and never goes back again or never progresses? 

Same now with the Junior World MX. Self funded, riders who could go went 1 rider qualified. The rest were way off on lap times but "what an experience" "learnt so much" outcome.

As I said this will be unpopular but this is not the Argus and athletes wont progress to the standard if this is always the approach and this has shown over the years.  You not within the criteria or within a time you dont go. 
 

Don't bring us into this ...... you can not compare Junior level athletes to Elites. Juniors can go over and learn, and appreciate the experience. Hopefully they will learn for when they do progress to become elite riders. All riders that went met the MSA qualification protocol. MSA in fact also rejected, probably faster riders, who did not meet the qualifying protocol. 

These MTB guys have simply not read the rules early enough and have NOT met the qualifying protocol. So they shouldn't go end of story.

Elite riders are NOT there to learn, Junior rider can learn go away.  

 

[DieselnDust]

When I listened to the Facebook rant posted in post#1 again and again the sticking point for me is

” ….could have qualified by participating in nationals and national champs but that would be defeating the object because the standard isn’t high enough….”

case closed, didn’t want to qualify because the national series isn’t good enough yet it’s the access ticket to the goal. Nothing further to discuss, no further emotion need to be applied. Didn’t want to qualify , didn’t qualify = stay at home.

[J Wakefield]

3 minutes ago, Headshot said:

John I think you're showing your lack of knowledge of the sport of downhill racing. At least two or three of the riders not permitted to go would never be two minutes behind the winner. Who gained you say .. well the sport gains because it provides an incentive for other riders to up their game and try to get there too.

No help given by CSA and little if any interest in the sport from sponsors and the average marathon/gravel riding SA public so its an uphill battle, as can be seen from your and the other punters here who seem to look down on the downhill racers from their lycra clad pedestals. Greg has mentioned time an again the lack of recognition his achievements have received in SA and that trend is clearly not about to change, given the attitude to up and coming racers displayed here.

The WC  is like the  CTCT - said nobody, ever? That's ludicrous. 

There are many examples of breakout performances that occur in DH racing because suddenly everything clicks, especially for the younger riders. 

SA is the poorer for not having all its best riders at the WC. 

I've won  multiple SA titles with DH clients and provided significant set up info on their bikes from previous motocross knowledge and background. I think I know what I am talking about and it was a figure of speech. 

[Headshot]

3 minutes ago, Jewbacca said:

I've asked this a few times

Who out of those NOT going earned UCI points towards the allotted slots, as it looks as though the available places have been earned by those already going.

No one seems to want to answer 

I would also ask, those not going, who of them is still young enough with enough dedication, talent and discipline to still be spotted by a big team and race at the top level?

Before everyone says Theo, he is 30 odd and while I'm not ageist, most teams won't invest in a 30 year old rider to develop

So why take riders who have realistically missed their chance at the big time to learn to race in the big time?

One thing I learned was that no matter how loyal we are to our country and want the best for our country, we don't always have the talent pool in every sport to fill the shoes of generational outgoing talents across sport genres and that's ok.

Again, this is not a personal attack on anyone, I'm sure they are rad, but going to learn and going for experience is different to going for a jol, which is not the point of World Champs

 

 

30 is still young for DH these days. teams sign riders for various reasons. Greg was signed at 42. Kerr is 36. yes they're well established but there are many who only bloom later in their careers like Kerr for instance. How well do you actually follow DH? I suspect that numerous opinionated nay sayers on this thread barely do.

Ill informed invective from bikehubbers - who would have thought.

[J Wakefield]

6 minutes ago, Headshot said:

30 is still young for DH these days. teams sign riders for various reasons. Greg was signed at 42. Kerr is 36. yes they're well established but there are many who only bloom later in their careers like Kerr for instance. How well do you actually follow DH? I suspect that numerous opinionated nay sayers on this thread barely do.

Ill informed invective from bikehubbers - who would have thought.

Greg wasnt 100th+ in the world at 42 and had a few results it seems before that at at close to half his current age. 
Its like comparing the Zim dollar to the Euro

[J Wakefield]

11 minutes ago, Gnarly said:

Don't bring us into this ...... you can not compare Junior level athletes to Elites. Juniors can go over and learn, and appreciate the experience. Hopefully they will learn for when they do progress to become elite riders. All riders that went met the MSA qualification protocol. MSA in fact also rejected, probably faster riders, who did not meet the qualifying protocol. 

These MTB guys have simply not read the rules early enough and have NOT met the qualifying protocol. So they shouldn't go end of story.

Elite riders are NOT there to learn, Junior rider can learn go away.  

 

You forget the level of juniors now days when mx riders are turning pro at 15 and 16 years old for 6 figure salaries. 

[Headshot]

Just now, J Wakefield said:

You forget the level of juniors now days when mx riders are turning pro at 15 and 16 years old for 6 figure salaries. 

And there is a massive difference between MX and DH - big $$ for everything from equipment to coaching. 

 

I'm still not understanding why any of you think it would be a bad idea to have as big a contingent of riders as possible at the Worlds.