Ashchest Posted August 15, 2019 Share Is there any merit to blame apartheid or colonialism for the current state of Africa? I have travelled so much through Africa during the last 25 years and everywhere that I have been I just see a very sorry and pathetic state. This leads me to ask the question "who is to be blamed for the oppression and suffering " in these countries that are so rich in natural resources? Can we blame apartheid? Can we blame colonialism? Can we blame the western world? Can we blame the white man? Why is it that the general inhabitants of Africa, especially sub-saharan part does not show much progress if any at all? Why do I see so much poverty and so little opportunity for personal development and prosperity? Children go hungry and are left to play in dirt and just simply find a way for themselves? There is in general no regard for the future and to make provision for something better for generations to come. In contrary, there seems to be a general movement backwards , into the past? I see that the only valid reason to blame the Western world or the white man is because the presence of Western prospering and developed countries (people) gives a contrast and reflects the lack of progress and shortcomings of these 3rd world areas. If I was brought up not to look forward and progress then I would most probably also be unhappy with myself but even more unhappy with those around me who do prosper and make progress - and most likely find reasons to blame the good looking and prospering inhabitants for making me look so incompetent. Robbie Stewart, Dirkitech, HOEKVLAG and 4 others 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchelicious Posted August 15, 2019 Share Apartheid will always be blamed. 100 years from now this tune will still be playing. Most people in the world need someone or something to take the fall for their failure, it's human nature. You will get more sympathy, sell more books or get more readers to read your article by blaming Apartheid than if you blamed your Mother/Father/whoever. Yes it will always be blamed. That is because it will have a long lasting effect on many socioeconomic and emotional factors. The severity of the blame will dissipate over time as the effects become less noticeable through equal opportunity (equal outcomes has negative pendulum effect on the medium term). I do not think it is generally used as an excuse for failure by the people, the average voter as an example. However as long as something is a useful tool for politicians or the powerful it will be kept alive for their causes, and not in the interest of those who really suffered. Because of the deep impact that apartheid had and still has on the majority of SA people, it still raises deep emotions. Its this that is being exploited by those wanting power or wanting to stay in power. It is important that we never forget and learn from our mistakes. Apartheid will negatively affect all our lives for a long time to come still. popcorn_skollie, MORNE , Danger Dassie and 5 others 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashchest Posted August 15, 2019 Share IceCreamMan and MORNE 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MORNE Posted August 15, 2019 Share snip I see that the only valid reason to blame the Western world or the white man is because the presence of Western prospering and developed countries (people) gives a contrast and reflects the lack of progress and shortcomings of these 3rd world areas. If I was brought up not to look forward and progress then I would most probably also be unhappy with myself but even more unhappy with those around me who do prosper and make progress - and most likely find reasons to blame the good looking and prospering inhabitants for making me look so incompetent. for reference....this is what my 'tripey' post was trying to allude to I guess. Edited August 15, 2019 by morneS555 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickGM Posted August 15, 2019 Share "hey apartheid wasn't so bad and hasn't really informed and permeated every single aspect of the social fabric from who serves you your cheesburger at the wimpy to what you'll pay for school fees to how the society provides transport infrastructure" That is the thing. I work in municipal water supply and spend a large part of my days looking at aerial photos with plan views of water distribution networks. In every single town you can see the fingerprint of apartheid: "This is Suburb A, with immaculate, well-engineered water networks, 6 bars of pressure and supply redundancy. Note also the wide tree-lined roads and large stand size. This is Suburb B, separated from suburb A (quite conveniently) by a railway line and an industrial area. They get their water from 1 stand pipe." I see examples of this every day. Then you extend that level of neglect to everything: education, electricity, roads, public transport, just about everything you can think of that shapes your daily life. Do people just think this is some unfortunate coincidence? I do understand that so many white folks are tired of being made to feel guilty about apartheid, especially because most of us were just caught up in the machine. And it also shouldn't be used as a crutch to mask the current governments (obvious) shortcomings. But I also know far too many people who think apartheid played no role in the fact that their perception of a normal life means having a maid and a gardener who earn a few thousand rand a month. But hey, every society has have's and have-nots, and somebody's gotta look after the kids and clean the pool, am I right? Skubarra, eddy, Piston ZA and 5 others 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skubarra Posted August 15, 2019 Share So without a shred of evidence we blame apartheid. Well yeah, that’s easy enough to do. We just close our minds and accept the narrative without having a real think about it. Like white minority capital. This is the author Njogu Morgan is registered as a PhD student in Town and Regional Planning at the University of the Witwatersrand in Johannesburg. His research explores the relationship between city governance form and implementation of the sustainable city agenda from an international comparative perspective. The research is co-supervised by Professor Philip Harrison of the University of the Witwatersrand and Professor Simon Joss, University of Westminster. The article is a small extract from his research project and part of a larger study that is published in a book Maybe you should contact the University of Wits & Westminster and inform them of this fraud making ridiculous historical claims without a "shred of evidence". Or maybe just offer to review his work to point out all the inaccuracies missed by his professor & peers ? Mamil, cat-i, Danger Dassie and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceCreamMan Posted August 15, 2019 Share This is the author Njogu Morgan is registered as a PhD student in Town and Regional Planning at the University of the Witwatersrand in Johannesburg. His research explores the relationship between city governance form and implementation of the sustainable city agenda from an international comparative perspective. The research is co-supervised by Professor Philip Harrison of the University of the Witwatersrand and Professor Simon Joss, University of Westminster.[/size] The article is a small extract from his research project and part of a larger study that is published in a book Maybe you should contact the University of Wits & Westminster and inform them of this fraud making ridiculous historical claims without a "shred of evidence". Or maybe just offer to review his work to point out all the inaccuracies missed by his professor & peers ?So safe to say he was not actually around in 1940 then. Conjecture m’lud. I would hazard a guess and propose that segregation may result in an increase of bicycle usage as distances increase. Bicycles as a commuting vehicle has a sweet spot distance wise. The whole Qhubeka principle is founded on bicycles bridging distances and convenience, after all. At last count they had distributed in excess of 75 000 of the Buffalo bikes. But it’s not always convenient compared to buses an taxis and cars and bicycles lost their position as status symbols within societies. You could no longer woo that lass with a bicycle so it lost its position in society. Blaming apartheid is easy, it’s convenient and everybody nods their heads without thinking about it. It’s like the emperors new clothes. And just looking at the headline, one should immediately deduce it’s emotive and designed to get a certain response.. killed....should of used the term murdered in cold blood or something .. Edited August 15, 2019 by IceCreamMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLove Posted August 15, 2019 Share "This is Suburb A, with immaculate, well-engineered water networks, 6 bars of pressure and supply redundancy. Note also the wide tree-lined roads and large stand size. This is Suburb B, separated from suburb A (quite conveniently) by a railway line and an industrial area. They get their water from 1 stand pipe." I see examples of this every day. Then you extend that level of neglect to everything: education, electricity, roads, public transport, just about everything you can think of that shapes your daily life. Do people just think this is some unfortunate coincidence? Please turn the water pressure in Kensington up a bit please Edited August 15, 2019 by OneLove SwissVan, Jakkals., IceCreamMan and 3 others 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skubarra Posted August 15, 2019 Share So safe to say he was not actually around in 1940 then. Conjecture m’lud. I would hazard a guess and propose that segregation may result in an increase of bicycle usage as distances increase. Bicycles as a commuting vehicle has a sweet spot distance wise. The whole Qhubeka principle is founded on bicycles bridging distances and convenience, after all. At last count they had distributed in excess of 75 000 of the Buffalo bikes. You "hazard a guess" that apartheid increased cycle usage based on what Quebeka did in the 2000's - ok then - what is that you were saying about conjecture m'lad? And again, nobody including the author is saying that apartheid was the sole reason. It's a pity you can't look beyond the clickbait title, but to be fair the outrage on here over the title is far more interesting than the mundane content of the article. Edited August 15, 2019 by Skubarra cat-i 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popcorn_skollie Posted August 15, 2019 Share Yes it will always be blamed. That is because it will have a long lasting effect on many socioeconomic and emotional factors. The severity of the blame will dissipate over time as the effects become less noticeable through equal opportunity (equal outcomes has negative pendulum effect on the medium term). I do not think it is generally used as an excuse for failure by the people, the average voter as an example. However as long as something is a useful tool for politicians or the powerful it will be kept alive for their causes, and not in the interest of those who really suffered. Because of the deep impact that apartheid had and still has on the majority of SA people, it still raises deep emotions. Its this that is being exploited by those wanting power or wanting to stay in power. It is important that we never forget and learn from our mistakes. Apartheid will negatively affect all our lives for a long time to come still. I couldn't find the words. But you paraphrased my thoughts quite nicely. I'd add that while the annoyance of over using apartheid as a scapegoat for contemporary social problems is not without merit. Especially considering our current political climate. Its a dangerous bandwagon to jump on. The chokehold of corruption in our country is so strong today. That its easy to use it as a means to redirect, delegitimize, and attempt to refute such claims even when they are undeniably true. Edited August 15, 2019 by popcorn_skollie fanievb, RocknRolla, Max Headroom and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RocknRolla Posted August 15, 2019 Share I couldn't find the words. But you paraphrased my thoughts quite nicely. I'd add that while the annoyance of over using apartheid as a scapegoat for contemporary social problems is not without merit. Especially considering our current political climate. Its a dangerous bandwagon to jump on. The chokehold of corruption in our country is so strong today. That its easy to use it as a means to redirect, delegitimize, and attempt to refute such claims even when they are undeniably true. Perhaps "Calling Apartheid" could be equal to Godwin's law in your above post. cat-i, fanievb and Dirkitech 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceCreamMan Posted August 15, 2019 Share You "hazard a guess" that apartheid increased cycle usage based on what Quebeka did in the 2000's - ok then - what is that you were saying about conjecture m'lad? And again, nobody including the author is saying that apartheid was the sole reason. It's a pity you can't look beyond the clickbait title, but to be fair the outrage on here over the title is far more interesting than the mundane content of the article.Read that part of my post again, slowly and with understanding. I mean really slowly so you actually understand what it is I am saying. The original article talks to 1940 and then current day, did you miss that. So what Qhubeka is doing currently is actually relevant. Anyway, we disagree on apartheid’s role regarding the demise of cycling. You choose to follow what the author has written. I choose to critically analyze it and reject it as there is to many unknown variables to make such a call, but it sure is convenient in today’s society. Let’s agree to disagree and move on? Goodbadugly 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbie Stewart Posted August 15, 2019 Share Is there any merit to blame apartheid or colonialism for the current state of Africa? I have travelled so much through Africa during the last 25 years and everywhere that I have been I just see a very sorry and pathetic state. This leads me to ask the question "who is to be blamed for the oppression and suffering " in these countries that are so rich in natural resources? Can we blame apartheid? Can we blame colonialism? Can we blame the western world? Can we blame the white man? Why is it that the general inhabitants of Africa, especially sub-saharan part does not show much progress if any at all? Why do I see so much poverty and so little opportunity for personal development and prosperity? Children go hungry and are left to play in dirt and just simply find a way for themselves? There is in general no regard for the future and to make provision for something better for generations to come. In contrary, there seems to be a general movement backwards , into the past? I see that the only valid reason to blame the Western world or the white man is because the presence of Western prospering and developed countries (people) gives a contrast and reflects the lack of progress and shortcomings of these 3rd world areas. If I was brought up not to look forward and progress then I would most probably also be unhappy with myself but even more unhappy with those around me who do prosper and make progress - and most likely find reasons to blame the good looking and prospering inhabitants for making me look so incompetent. I agree wholeheartedly with everything you say. I too have traveled Africa for business, and I have yet to come across an African country that is prospering and looking after it's people (apart from Botswana and Namibia). Rampant poverty, clearly distinct living zones, where the affluence and the abject poverty are even more clearly defined than here in SA. Was it all just us? Did the white man cause all of Africa's problems? Or is this sentiment of not caring, and destroying not a left over remnant of colonial rule, but rather an entrenched trait from generations and generations of doing the same thing? Every time the plane lands in Cape Town, I feel like this is a different continent to Africa. People in SA (and I am mostly referring to the majority population) have NO IDEA what actual poverty looks like. Milkman and Dirkitech 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Dale Posted August 15, 2019 Share Unless you were suffering under apartheid and continue to pick up the pieces of multi-generational systemic oppression 25 years on, you just won't get how terrible it all is. The scale of the damage of it is beyond measure, underreported, denied and often buried in the minds of those who find it convenient. Gandalf, Mamil, OneLove and 4 others 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skubarra Posted August 15, 2019 Share Read that part of my post again, slowly and with understanding. I mean really slowly so you actually understand what it is I am saying. The original article talks to 1940 and then current day, did you miss that. So what Qhubeka is doing currently is actually relevant. Anyway, we disagree on apartheid’s role regarding the demise of cycling. You choose to follow what the author has written. I choose to critically analyze it and reject it as there is to many unknown variables to make such a call, but it sure is convenient in today’s society. Let’s agree to disagree and move on? The only part of your post that I agree with is that I choose to follow what the author has written over your version of apartheid history. Let me point out just some of the flaws in your earlier post to what you refer to as your "critical analysis" (if only to illustrate that I do attempt to read your posts slowly and with understanding). Your idea that we were already a completely segregated society by the 1920's is wrong. Group Areas Act was passed in 1950, not in 1923 as you claim (I can only guess that you are confusing it with another act). Orange Grove which you mentioned is also 10km away from another place called Sophiatown - where forced removals took place in the 1950's (actually based on an another act passed in 1954) And in anyway, the comment about cyclists going past the Astra theatre is just an observation & introduction to the article, not the foundation for the author's research. So whether the cyclists in the photo came from Alexandra, Sophiatown or anywhere else does not prove or disprove anything. You also mention things like the global phenomenon of the movement to cars & mass transport as if it would somehow refute the article when it is actually prominently stated in the article - hence my earlier question on if you actually read the article. cat-i 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakkals. Posted August 15, 2019 Share Unless you were suffering under apartheid and continue to pick up the pieces of multi-generational systemic oppression 25 years on, you just won't get how terrible it all is. The scale of the damage of it is beyond measure, underreported, denied and often buried in the minds of those who find it convenient.The scale of the damage of the new government is measured...in trillions....looting, self enriching etc. Could also have build a new 6 bar water feeds or even maintained the "1 stand pipe". Quality of life could've been made better for those who struggled under Apartheid. Darrynbp, Goodbadugly and Dirkitech 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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