Motorists vs Cyclists.... again

[DieselnDust]

3 hours ago, Patchelicious said:

Nothing is an absolute, so the statement is already false.

While there are many reasons that contribute to the attitude/behaviour towards cyclists, and you right in your bullying example, but to simply say that cyclists behaviour bears NO impact in the attitude towards them is false.

One could argue that inconsiderate behaviour by cyclists contributes little to the deaths of cyclists by motorists, and I would agree, but this is a separate point to the one that I was making about the perceived issue that road cyclists own the road and should be subject to a motorist scorn.

In no way ever should a cyclists behaviour be used to justify their death. 

 

3 hours ago, Paul said:

But I think we can all agree that you can obey every written and unwritten road rule there may be and you will still encounter the type of prick that @DieseInDust is describing.

 

 

i can't add anything further as both posts carry many truths

[jackievs]

19 hours ago, DieselnDust said:

behaviour toward cyclist has nothing to do with cyclist behaviour. It's all about intolerance and a bullying mindset that is ingrained from young by parents and then fostered in school. Every pathway in SA life teaches us that bigger is better. We learn kindness tolerance toward animals but not toward fellow human beings. Example"

riding up Chappies on Sunday morning a White BMW 1XX passes me as close as he can because soema. Less than 20m later this same car is now braking HAF to avoid hitting a rooster crossing the road. I pull up the passenger side of the Peter oliver eating sweets while he's waiting and ask him what he thought he as doing steering his car at me.

he's response....."you F***ing pieces of **** don't belong on the road, you belong on the pavement and there is no pavement so **** off back to your township and leave the road to people what pay tax you *******************************!!!"then tries to run me down as I set off.

 

Every encounter with an ignorant person in this place just lowers my opinion of the people in this country, There just seems to be an endless supply and there's no consequence as I've reported the last 3 incidents with no follow up from the authorities

It is so sad... going to take several life times of education... I watch a guy on Youtube called Cyclingmikey in London... he has recorded and responsible for many drivers receiving fines for passing too close to a cyclist... It will require a different universe for SA to ever achieve these standards of road use... can you imagine recording bad road behaviour on camera and sending it to the SA Metro Police ...heheheeehheeee 

[ChrisF]

34 minutes ago, jackievs said:

It is so sad... going to take several life times of education... I watch a guy on Youtube called Cyclingmikey in London... he has recorded and responsible for many drivers receiving fines for passing too close to a cyclist... It will require a different universe for SA to ever achieve these standards of road use... can you imagine recording bad road behaviour on camera and sending it to the SA Metro Police ...heheheeehheeee 

And yet we can b!tch and moan about "drivers" .... but so many of us continue to ride in a manner that blocks free flowing traffic ...

 

 

Sadly yes, going to take a LOT of "education" to get our fellow cyclists to behave better on the roads .....

[Ispeed_V]

27 minutes ago, ChrisF said:

And yet we can b!tch and moan about "drivers" .... but so many of us continue to ride in a manner that blocks free flowing traffic ...

 

 

Sadly yes, going to take a LOT of "education" to get our fellow cyclists to behave better on the roads .....

Too true. We are often our own worst enemies.

Just this past Sunday coming back from the cradle going past Avianto, there was a group of 6 or so cyclists riding abreast taking up the entire lane. When one politely hoots, you just get flipped the bird as if ' who are you to warn me to move out of the way of a car'.

And then when you do pass them and they see that you have a bike on the back of your car, there is even more gesticulations etc.

The mind just boggles at these opiniated characters.

Edited August 10, 2021 by FondTF2

[Mook]

37 minutes ago, FondTF2 said:

Too true. We are often our own worst enemies.

Just this past Sunday coming back from the cradle going past Avianto, there was a group of 6 or so cyclists riding abreast taking up the entire lane. When one politely hoots, you just get flipped the bird as if ' who are you to warn me to move out of the way of a car'.

And then when you do pass them and they see that you have a bike on the back of your car, there is even more gesticulations etc.

The mind just boggles at these opiniated characters.

I have eluded to this in past threads AND got taken out by certain heavyweight Hubbers ....... ????

Fact is, many cyclists have much introspection to do - myself included ????

You will not win a fight with a motorized vehicle, regardless of who's at fault.

[Eddy Gordo]

1 hour ago, ChrisF said:

And yet we can b!tch and moan about "drivers" .... but so many of us continue to ride in a manner that blocks free flowing traffic ...

 

 

Sadly yes, going to take a LOT of "education" to get our fellow cyclists to behave better on the roads .....

One of the main reasons I dont join roadie groups.

I will again bring up cycle lanes, u can ride like you want in them, yet so many refuse to use it and then ride 4 or 6 abreast and ignore the traffic and the obstruction they causing. If I am not mistaken, causing a traffic obstruction is as illegal as not using the cycle lane. Traffic police need to start doing a better job than just sit behind cameras and catching speedsters.

 

[DieselnDust]

41 minutes ago, ChrisF said:

And yet we can b!tch and moan about "drivers" .... but so many of us continue to ride in a manner that blocks free flowing traffic ...

 

 

Sadly yes, going to take a LOT of "education" to get our fellow cyclists to behave better on the roads .....

True Chris, very true and here's the but.

Despite this inconsiderate behaviour, these cyclists don't kill drivers.

I'll give you an example of defensive cycling.

Cycling down main road lakeside past the French petrol station, I'm on the left side about 50cm off the curb. The road is wode enough for two cars to squeeze past each other without crossing the dashed line. Up ahead a car is stationary and looking for an opportunity to turn right toward the PnP. The gap on the left of the car is wide enough for another car to slip into. The car behind me is now accelerating to get into that gap ahead of me but is still some 20m further back. At my speed the car and I will arrive at the gap at the same time. If I slow then the car get through but those behind it will follow squeezing my off my bike and onto the pavement or I have to come to a stop. I move over to the right a full metre so I'm no in the centre of the left lane.

Motorist jumps on the long horn.....

[The Ouzo]

18 minutes ago, DieselnDust said:

True Chris, very true and here's the but.

Despite this inconsiderate behaviour, these cyclists don't kill drivers.

I'll give you an example of defensive cycling.

Cycling down main road lakeside past the French petrol station, I'm on the left side about 50cm off the curb. The road is wode enough for two cars to squeeze past each other without crossing the dashed line. Up ahead a car is stationary and looking for an opportunity to turn right toward the PnP. The gap on the left of the car is wide enough for another car to slip into. The car behind me is now accelerating to get into that gap ahead of me but is still some 20m further back. At my speed the car and I will arrive at the gap at the same time. If I slow then the car get through but those behind it will follow squeezing my off my bike and onto the pavement or I have to come to a stop. I move over to the right a full metre so I'm no in the centre of the left lane.

Motorist jumps on the long horn.....

commuting taught to me ride defensively. Not aggressively mind you, but defend my piece of tar and make sure I get noticed.

Small things like on a left hand bend, move further away from the pavement so that you can be seen. Like your example above, move to the middle of the road to make sure you dont get taken out by the following cars.

But courteous for the most part, thank cars for waiting for you at intersections even though the law says they MUST wait.

 

I've also learnt to keep the hand gestures and swearing to myself as its just not worth it.

[DieselnDust]

3 minutes ago, ouzo said:

commuting taught to me ride defensively. Not aggressively mind you, but defend my piece of tar and make sure I get noticed.

Small things like on a left hand bend, move further away from the pavement so that you can be seen. Like your example above, move to the middle of the road to make sure you dont get taken out by the following cars.

But courteous for the most part, thank cars for waiting for you at intersections even though the law says they MUST wait.

 

I've also learnt to keep the hand gestures and swearing to myself as its just not worth it.

 

much weakness in this area still do I have

[The Ouzo]

Just now, DieselnDust said:

 

much weakness in this area still do I have

oh I'm not perfect, but definitely make the effort. Normally by the time I've calmed down enough from the close call to actually issue a gesture the car is far enough away that its pointless.

[Eddy Gordo]

37 minutes ago, DieselnDust said:

True Chris, very true and here's the but.

Despite this inconsiderate behaviour, these cyclists don't kill drivers.

I'll give you an example of defensive cycling.

Cycling down main road lakeside past the French petrol station, I'm on the left side about 50cm off the curb. The road is wode enough for two cars to squeeze past each other without crossing the dashed line. Up ahead a car is stationary and looking for an opportunity to turn right toward the PnP. The gap on the left of the car is wide enough for another car to slip into. The car behind me is now accelerating to get into that gap ahead of me but is still some 20m further back. At my speed the car and I will arrive at the gap at the same time. If I slow then the car get through but those behind it will follow squeezing my off my bike and onto the pavement or I have to come to a stop. I move over to the right a full metre so I'm no in the centre of the left lane.

Motorist jumps on the long horn.....

This you get even if you driving a car!!! the other motorist believes it is their right to drive you out of the way just so that they can get past without having to wait. You will also find most of them are driving above the speed limit. There is just no consideration for the next person any longer. Everything is about me, myself and I. 

What @ouzo says, had out also try to take a bit more space before the narrow section. I also tend to stand up and just sprint past to try and keep speed up to that of the other vehicles. As for the long horn, I am seriously considering carrying one of those very loud airhorns as a reaction

[Paul]

1 hour ago, Eddy Gordo said:

One of the main reasons I dont join roadie groups.

I will again bring up cycle lanes, u can ride like you want in them, yet so many refuse to use it and then ride 4 or 6 abreast and ignore the traffic and the obstruction they causing. If I am not mistaken, causing a traffic obstruction is as illegal as not using the cycle lane. Traffic police need to start doing a better job than just sit behind cameras and catching speedsters.

 

For interest sake, where are you riding or driving that you are encountering cyclists who are 4-6 abreast? It is just too much for me to even imagine. Man, the verbal and sometimes physical abuse you will receive just riding 2 abreast here is enough to take the fun out of any ride. My girlfriend came to visit me from New Zealand a while ago and we were on our way back from riding in Stellenbosch... just before getting onto the R44 (with Rhenish Primary on the right) she came up next to me and said "Can we ride next to each other here?" at that exact moment someone from behind sat on their hooter and then came past, with hands waving all over the place gesturing for us to move over. For some context there was no other traffic and the opposite lane was completely open and safe for him to pass. I looked at my girlfriend and said "Not unless you want to keep dealing with that" lol.

[Patchelicious]

1 hour ago, DieselnDust said:

Despite this inconsiderate behaviour, these cyclists don't kill drivers.

No they don’t kill drivers, but that does not mean that their behaviour shouldn’t improve. The killing of drivers is a pretty drastic yard stick to set for behaviour correction.

One can ride defensively AND be considerate at the same time.

 

[Eddy Gordo]

1 hour ago, Paul said:

For interest sake, where are you riding or driving that you are encountering cyclists who are 4-6 abreast? It is just too much for me to even imagine. Man, the verbal and sometimes physical abuse you will receive just riding 2 abreast here is enough to take the fun out of any ride. My girlfriend came to visit me from New Zealand a while ago and we were on our way back from riding in Stellenbosch... just before getting onto the R44 (with Rhenish Primary on the right) she came up next to me and said "Can we ride next to each other here?" at that exact moment someone from behind sat on their hooter and then came past, with hands waving all over the place gesturing for us to move over. For some context there was no other traffic and the opposite lane was completely open and safe for him to pass. I looked at my girlfriend and said "Not unless you want to keep dealing with that" lol.

Diep river, bergvliet main road. Esp down victoria road, last weekend was disgusting, guys jumped a red light and proceeded to take up the whole lane up the bridge. I was behind a van at the time, the drive gave a light toot for them to move, but they didnt and then the bakkie went into oncoming traffic to get past. One group braking the law and forcing others to do so as well. Anyway, this topic will never change, there will always be these kinds of incidents. 

I value myself and cycle with care, its clear most others are just out there to do as they please and cant be bothered if they will make it home to their families.

Edited August 10, 2021 by Eddy Gordo

[justinafrika]

4 hours ago, Paul said:

For interest sake, where are you riding or driving that you are encountering cyclists who are 4-6 abreast? It is just too much for me to even imagine. Man, the verbal and sometimes physical abuse you will receive just riding 2 abreast here is enough to take the fun out of any ride. My girlfriend came to visit me from New Zealand a while ago and we were on our way back from riding in Stellenbosch... just before getting onto the R44 (with Rhenish Primary on the right) she came up next to me and said "Can we ride next to each other here?" at that exact moment someone from behind sat on their hooter and then came past, with hands waving all over the place gesturing for us to move over. For some context there was no other traffic and the opposite lane was completely open and safe for him to pass. I looked at my girlfriend and said "Not unless you want to keep dealing with that" lol.

That’s nuts, right!? Cue Jack Nicholson voice: “Why can’t we just all get along?”  But seriously, as a cyclist I don’t impede any other road users and as a driver I decided at least a decade ago to drive defensively and to never be impatient in any traffic no matter what anyone else did.  I chose to NEVER get angry or even irritated in the least, it is a choice after all.  (Full disclosure: Physically I’m a bigass 57 year old in great shape who hasn’t yet been bettered when attacked or while physically defending friends and loved ones, even during a violent home invasion).  

Getting pissed off achieves zero. Traffic life has been completely chilled for me since that decision, a breeze.

Edited August 10, 2021 by justinafrika

[DieselnDust]

3 hours ago, Patchelicious said:

No they don’t kill drivers, but that does not mean that their behaviour shouldn’t improve. The killing of drivers is a pretty drastic yard stick to set for behaviour correction.

One can ride defensively AND be considerate at the same time.

 

I'm certainly not advocating that pillock behaviour by cyclists should be embraced but i am bringing context to the different consequences. Pillocks will always be with us

A cyclist behaving badly kills no one. A motorist behaving badly kills many people.

When i ask cyclists about riding two abreast many say its safer i.e. they believe its a defensive strategy. Some okes ride in the middle of the road to avoid glass and other road detritis, yet in the eyes of the motorist if the cyclist is not riding in the gutter they are getting in the way. my riding defensively was viewed as me breaking the law because I wasn't all the way over to the left.

Motorists have a perception problem grounded in their belief that the road belongs to them because they have a license disc/feel superiority complex and reinforced by outdated legislation ( that our lobby groups seem to ignore in terms of driving suitable revision).