Danger Dassie Posted October 10, 2018 Share I am kind of with squier on this, I would be surprised if there is a sophisticated doping ring operating in SA pro circles (this is really just my opinion based on nothing more than a hunch) Only pro caught in the past few years that showed any kind of sophistication in the way he doped was DG who probably doped for years and only got caught when testing procedures improved. Kevin Evans - Bio Passport, Rourke Croeser - EPO, Carmen Buchacher - EPO, Shan Wilson - Retrospective testing along with conspiracy to supply and undermine the system. Just to name a few.On top of that, a Hawks investigation. For the rest it's often a comedy hour of incompetence & recklessness. Cyclists who take over the counter flue medicines without checking the list, BS with botched testosterone TUE, Crouser with his saddle sore needles, KE with his brain implosion after his appendix op. I can go on. If it it turns out our local pros were actually capable and had the resources to be part of sophisticated doping rings I would almost be pleasantly surprised CSA haven't communicated anything on the case, only SAIDS who didn't indicate the scope if the investigation by the Hawks. So it's fair to say that it isn't only cycling as sporting code that is affected. Again, as per the SAIDS release, based on information gathered it has now been handed to the Serious Crimes and Investigations Unit, the Hawks. That is fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squier Posted October 10, 2018 Share Guys, there is no systemic doping and syndicates... Icarus was a fictional mockumentary! Can you imagine an African state sponsored doping programme? That would make one epic Police-Academy-vibe comedy movie. It could start with Khalid Galant standing in line behind Nene in Saxonwold to meet the Guptas... Anyway; If you read books like Hamilton's Secret Race or even the LA's Reasoned Decision, there was never a massive scale operation to obtain the EPO. It was as simple as getting it from a pharmacy in Switserland and giving it to a gardener on a bike. Yes, that was way back but even today EPO needs to be available to patients with kidney diseases, chemo patients, etc. so it is still widely available. It's not cocaine or sacred donkey balls testosterone. It's a relatively widely used medicine for people with chronic kidney ailments. Perhaps someone saw a gap in the local market and started bringing in a few extra batches to make it easier for his friends to buy, the same as someone would bring in chinese carbon frames or something similar, but I highly doubt that we're looking at a mimic of Pablo Escabar's drug cartell here. Like I said, to us it's EPO (OMG! Gasp!), to the other 99% of the world it's Granma's kidney meds. I'm not downplaying EPO as a PED, I'm just saying it's probably easier to get your hands on by the average Joe than we think. intern, DieselnDust and Gen 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchelicious Posted October 10, 2018 Share Can you imagine an African state sponsored doping programme? That would make one epic Police-Academy-vibe comedy movie. It could start with Khalid Galant standing in line behind Nene in Saxonwold to meet the Guptas... Anyway; If you read books like Hamilton's Secret Race or even the LA's Reasoned Decision, there was never a massive scale operation to obtain the EPO. It was as simple as getting it from a pharmacy in Switserland and giving it to a gardener on a bike. Yes, that was way back but even today EPO needs to be available to patients with kidney diseases, chemo patients, etc. so it is still widely available. It's not cocaine or sacred donkey balls testosterone. It's a relatively widely used medicine for people with chronic kidney ailments. Perhaps someone saw a gap in the local market and started bringing in a few extra batches to make it easier for his friends to buy, the same as someone would bring in chinese carbon frames or something similar, but I highly doubt that we're looking at a mimic of Pablo Escabar's drug cartell here. Like I said, to us it's EPO (OMG! Gasp!), to the other 99% of the world it's Granma's kidney meds. I'm not downplaying EPO as a PED, I'm just saying it's probably easier to get your hands on by the average Joe than we think. Kenya, athletics... https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/35553195 Ask Tucker about it on Twitter, make some snacks, you will be busy for a while. geomark, Danger Dassie, DieselnDust and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryvdM Posted October 10, 2018 Share Can you imagine an African state sponsored doping programme? That would make one epic Police-Academy-vibe comedy movie. It could start with Khalid Galant standing in line behind Nene in Saxonwold to meet the Guptas... Anyway; If you read books like Hamilton's Secret Race or even the LA's Reasoned Decision, there was never a massive scale operation to obtain the EPO. It was as simple as getting it from a pharmacy in Switserland and giving it to a gardener on a bike. Yes, that was way back but even today EPO needs to be available to patients with kidney diseases, chemo patients, etc. so it is still widely available. It's not cocaine or sacred donkey balls testosterone. It's a relatively widely used medicine for people with chronic kidney ailments. Perhaps someone saw a gap in the local market and started bringing in a few extra batches to make it easier for his friends to buy, the same as someone would bring in chinese carbon frames or something similar, but I highly doubt that we're looking at a mimic of Pablo Escabar's drug cartell here. Like I said, to us it's EPO (OMG! Gasp!), to the other 99% of the world it's Granma's kidney meds. I'm not downplaying EPO as a PED, I'm just saying it's probably easier to get your hands on by the average Joe than we think. Again you have oversimplified a complicated system by focusing on only one area of it. Yes I read "The Secret Race". Did you miss the bit about all the trips to dirty doctors, private jets to get to labs to safely extract blood, experiments with sRBCs, and the most disgusting: the backroom politics to get positive test squashed? Edited October 10, 2018 by GaryvdM Danger Dassie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakkals. Posted October 10, 2018 Share Kenya, athletics... https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/35553195 Ask Tucker about it on Twitter, make some snacks, you will be busy for a while.Lekker Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squier Posted October 10, 2018 Share Again you have oversimplified a complicated system by focusing on only one area of it. Yes I read "The Secret Race". Did you miss the bit about all the trips to dirty doctors, private jets to get to labs to safely extract blood, experiments with sRBCs, and the most disgusting: the backroom politics to get positive test squashed? My point is specifically around the availability of the drug, EPO. Even though ill-advised, there's nothing stopping anyone from getting it and doping up themselves. but look, it's only my opinion... Can someone ask David George? DieselnDust 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchelicious Posted October 10, 2018 Share My point is specifically around the availability of the drug, EPO. Even though ill-advised, there's nothing stopping anyone from getting it and doping up themselves. but look, it's only my opinion... Can someone ask David George?Wasn't he supposed to tell as part of his sentence reduction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pure Savage Posted October 10, 2018 Share My point is specifically around the availability of the drug, EPO. Even though ill-advised, there's nothing stopping anyone from getting it and doping up themselves. but look, it's only my opinion... Can someone ask David George?Will ask him at school tomorrow Skubarra 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skubarra Posted October 10, 2018 Share I am kind of with squier on this, I would be surprised if there is a sophisticated doping ring operating in SA pro circles (this is really just my opinion based on nothing more than a hunch) Only pro caught in the past few years that showed any kind of sophistication in the way he doped was DG who probably doped for years and only got caught when testing procedures improved. Kevin Evans - Bio Passport, Rourke Croeser - EPO, Carmen Buchacher - EPO, Shan Wilson - Retrospective testing along with conspiracy to supply and undermine the system. Just to name a few.On top of that, a Hawks investigation. For the rest it's often a comedy hour of incompetence & recklessness. Cyclists who take over the counter flue medicines without checking the list, BS with botched testosterone TUE, Crouser with his saddle sore needles, KE with his brain implosion after his appendix op. I can go on. If it it turns out our local pros were actually capable and had the resources to be part of sophisticated doping rings I would almost be pleasantly surprised CSA haven't communicated anything on the case, only SAIDS who didn't indicate the scope if the investigation by the Hawks. So it's fair to say that it isn't only cycling as sporting code that is affected. Again, as per the SAIDS release, based on information gathered it has now been handed to the Serious Crimes and Investigations Unit, the Hawks. That is fact. Will be interesting to see the outcome of the Hawks investigation (although I'm not exactly holding my breath given the Hawks "ability" to investigate complex crimes). Until then I would be seriously impressed if our local cyclist skelms actually have the ability & resources to pull off a sophisticated doping scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vetplant Posted October 11, 2018 Share Finally watched Icarus last night. Those Russians orchestrated a big doping system, but the details aren't that scary or elaborate. Seems relatively simple to do it actually. So a "sophisticated drug ring" could come down to one or two individuals making the arrangements properly. Which is very possible in SA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squier Posted October 11, 2018 Share Wasn't he supposed to tell as part of his sentence reduction? He was, indeed. He did get a two month reduction though. That was 6 years back though. I doubt that his info is related to the current investigation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
splat Posted October 11, 2018 Share There's definitely different levels of dopers... You get the denialist/bully/unrepentant types - Lance/Valverde/Vino And then you get the guys who say sorry, try amend, do their time in quiet etc - Ullrich/Millar/Basso Whole lot easier to welcome the latter back, and especially when they don't improve despite no longer doping... Everyone's entitled to their own view, but for me, I don't like that Valverde won, or that Vino won while we're at it. Feel free to support people who are rightfully scrutinized - Me I will find someone else among the many athletes worthy of my praise. I am sure you have seen this article already: Valverde: I shouldn't be asked about Operacion Puerto Valverde raced Milano-Torino in Wednesday, in his second race in the rainbow jersey, and in the media mixed zone after the race Cyclingnews asked him about Operación Puerto."Operación Puerto is something I shouldn't be asked about," he said bluntly."That's water under the bridge, and I don't even want to talk about it. I believe I've sufficiently demonstrated who I am since then."Who asks me about Operación Puerto is clueless."http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/valverde-i-shouldnt-be-asked-about-operacion-puerto/ Opc_danny, intern and Andrew Steer 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldron Posted October 11, 2018 Share I am sure you have seen this article already: Valverde: I shouldn't be asked about Operacion PuertoValverde raced Milano-Torino in Wednesday, in his second race in the rainbow jersey, and in the media mixed zone after the race Cyclingnews asked him about Operación Puerto."Operación Puerto is something I shouldn't be asked about," he said bluntly."That's water under the bridge, and I don't even want to talk about it. I believe I've sufficiently demonstrated who I am since then."Who asks me about Operación Puerto is clueless."http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/valverde-i-shouldnt-be-asked-about-operacion-puerto/The past. Omerta. You're clueless. I'm guessing he hasn't read his Dale Carnegie lately.. intern 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Steer Posted October 11, 2018 Share I am sure you have seen this article already: Valverde: I shouldn't be asked about Operacion Puerto Valverde raced Milano-Torino in Wednesday, in his second race in the rainbow jersey, and in the media mixed zone after the race Cyclingnews asked him about Operación Puerto."Operación Puerto is something I shouldn't be asked about," he said bluntly."That's water under the bridge, and I don't even want to talk about it. I believe I've sufficiently demonstrated who I am since then."Who asks me about Operación Puerto is clueless."http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/valverde-i-shouldnt-be-asked-about-operacion-puerto/These guys are always the victim intern 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselnDust Posted October 11, 2018 Share Sometimes they are convenient scapegoats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchelicious Posted October 11, 2018 Share Sometimes they are convenient scapegoatsLike when? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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