Cape Town danger areas

[Mamil]

4 minutes ago, Paul Ruinaard said:

Okay that quite a big statement you are making there without any substantiation.

Which victims am I blaming and in which context do you make your allegations? I didnt blame any victims, rather I have asserted that cyclists can do a lot to clean up their shop and ensure they limit their exposure to harm which would mitigate risks.

Are you alledging all cyclists and accidents related to them are victims? 

Always remember that those that ignore the past and history are destined to repeat it.

Your victim blaming lies in the tacit implication that if "cyclists" cleaned up their act and/or simply weren't on the road we wouldn't be being killed. 

In the context of the recent deaths (2x car doors, a tourist bus turning across oncoming traffic, a taxi overtaking recklessly, a drunk driver in Worcester ... I could go on, your statement is at a minimum insensitive to the context of the conversation and in my view, falls squarely in the realm of "She was walking in a mini skirt and therefore can be blamed for a sexual assault".

 

[Paul Ruinaard]

Just now, Mamil said:

An absurd position to adopt - at the risk of reductio ad absurdum in my own argument, "It is dangerous to walk to the corner cafe, don't do it", "Public space offers little to no options for disabled people, they should not go out in public spaces". 

 

yep agreed but thats the extreme. You can do a lot of things to reduce your risks and accept your environment is hostile in some respects. By going to the extreme case you ridicule the point.

Every safety protocol is reliant on ensuring you eliminate all the things that can go wrong. Simply put you do that until the risks become acceptable to you.

You can complain lots about your environmemt, drivers, the police, the govermnet etc and thats fine but it is clear none of that is changing and in fact its getting worse and more risky. If you dont take this fact in to acocunt and change your behaviour your risk of an accident increases.

FYI I am 100% in agreement with you on the above in terms of lack of anything being done but you would not find me near those routes in a cycling bunch unless it was with total road closure. Thats what i have dcided to do.

 

 

[The Ouzo]

11 minutes ago, Paul Ruinaard said:

Okay that quite a big statement you are making there without any substantiation.

Which victims am I blaming and in which context do you make your allegations? I didnt blame any victims, rather I have asserted that cyclists can do a lot to clean up their shop and ensure they limit their exposure to harm which would mitigate risks.

Are you alledging all cyclists and accidents related to them are victims? 

Always remember that those that ignore the past and history are destined to repeat it.

everyone else has said what needs to be said to this reply of yours, i will not comment further as you have a history of having an anti cyclist tone to your posts on the hub.

[Paul Ruinaard]

So there are lots of people who are sensitive to the people who died and therefore are emotional. I am not commenting on any specific case or on any of those strings. You will see i never alluded to any of them.

Happily state its horrific what has happened. I can add plenty to your list and still it carries on. People are getting killed. Thats not changing Thats very tragic. And no one is doing much - other than ghost bikes and outrage and complaints. Still the deaths continue. 

All i am suggesting is you do a solid investigation of what happened and ask the questions around what could have been done to avoid it or you will repeat the outcome.

I am not suggesting what i am saying is popular nor anything to do with your rights etc, but if you do reduce risks you also potentially avoid more deaths.

Simply put, if the traffic on that road or any dangerous road reduced statistically the likelihood of deaths would decrease.

You make your own choices in the workd mate but in this case simply avoiding hot spots and esnuring you are not in the line of fire usually is a start.

 

 

[Mamil]

4 minutes ago, Paul Ruinaard said:

So there are lots of people who are sensitive to the people who died and therefore are emotional. I am not commenting on any specific case or on any of those strings. You will see i never alluded to any of them.

Happily state its horrific what has happened. I can add plenty to your list and still it carries on. People are getting killed. Thats not changing Thats very tragic. And no one is doing much - other than ghost bikes and outrage and complaints. Still the deaths continue. 

All i am suggesting is you do a solid investigation of what happened and ask the questions around what could have been done to avoid it or you will repeat the outcome.

I am not suggesting what i am saying is popular nor anything to do with your rights etc, but if you do reduce risks you also potentially avoid more deaths.

Simply put, if the traffic on that road or any dangerous road reduced statistically the likelihood of deaths would decrease.

You make your own choices in the workd mate but in this case simply avoiding hot spots and esnuring you are not in the line of fire usually is a start.

 

 

God forbid I get hit and you can post here, "Well what did he expect, he went riding on one of the most famous routes in the world." MAybe someone of a similar mindset will add "What colour was his shirt? ... oh it was that nice dark maroon one from Ciovita, no wonder".

As my last engagement with you on this topic, your again tacit assumption that riding on the road constitutes ignoring the danger and not taking steps to ensure safety is incorrect and arrogant

 

 

[Paul Ruinaard]

9 minutes ago, The Ouzo said:

everyone else has said what needs to be said to this reply of yours, i will not comment further as you have a history of having an anti cyclist tone to your posts on the hub.

again substantiate mate. I have been here for many years. I think i have about 30 plus years on bicycles so may have had some expereince so your statements are pretty wild. 

More on motorbikes. 

But  I am happy to ask dififcult questions and ruffle feathers. 

I am tired of seeing all the outrage and posts. Motorists arent changing their habits and the people are still dying. Rides, petitions, ghost bikes, memorials - how has that all helped to reduce the amount of people dying.

Sure cyclists have rights and we are entitled to be there. 

How has that helped?

Drivers are still drivng drunk and the authorities arent really doing much. Taxis still do taxi things. All the same - no changes. More cars, more danger.

Has the amount of danger we are exposed to in the last 30 years increased or decreased from a cyclists point of view? I can tell you i would happily do non road closure races in the past in Jhb and all over. I would not do that for love nor money now with the way things are.

All i am asking is that the cycling communty gets their heads out of their collective behinds and starts to recognise the situation they are in and act accordingly. 

I suggested people change their behaviours to ensure they reduce risks. But like i said its your choice to do this as you see fit. 

And i think it is your right to do whatever you choose - believe me you are welcome - but do it with awareness. If you choose to ride where its known to be high risk because other road users  are not really interetsed in respecting your rights as a cyclist then you may have a bad outcome. you only neede to look at all the public comments to see that the public arent really interested in your rights as a cyclist in fact they are very much anti you.

Take that on board because that is the reality - as much as we dont wnat to acknowledge it. We as cyclists are seen as the problem. All the posts about the fact we are husbands and fathers and the like is true, so why not just do soemthing to ensure you are more likley to walk in the door and be home after your ride than become a statistic.

 

[jcza]

Dangerous cycling causes annoyance, dangerous driving kills. 

Cyclists are not the problem, drivers are the problem. 

[Paul Ruinaard]

16 minutes ago, jcza said:

Dangerous cycling causes annoyance, dangerous driving kills. 

Cyclists are not the problem, drivers are the problem. 

yes agreed, that is a given - so knowing that there are dangerous drivers all around you, do you contnue assuming all are safe and that you will be okay or do you change your behaviour accordingly? I agree the drivers are dangerous, so how do you reduce the risks you are exposed to with that.

no question around that and really not deating it.

[Mamil]

[Paul Ruinaard]

17 minutes ago, Mamil said:

Hahah no one is wrong we are just having a difference of opinion and a healthy debate.

Nothing personal.

[Mook]

I have been following the "Paul Ruinaard vs Others" discourse closely. The irony is that we all are highly passionate about cycling AND life.

I have worked in a very regulated environment where safety is a non-negotiable fact of life. The info below is not my intellectual property and freely available on the www. If, for a few minutes, we take off our cycling "caps" and assess safety for what it is, these are proven strategies in any safety plan - even when cycling or driving on our roads.

Unfortunately this risk treatment strategy is also applicable when wearing a very short skirt and stiletto's down a sketchy alley known for random attacks on women. Sorry @Mamil for stealing your pun about the "not asking to be raped" example. It would be downright daft to play with a lion's nuts knowing that you could potentially die.

It is common cause that the first, and foremost, approach to risk is/should be to avoid it at all cost. Does this mean we should not ride our bikes on the open roads? Hell no, but what do you do if you cannot control the behaviour of a drunken, distracted or reckless driver coming at you from any direction?

Key Risk Management Steps

• Evaluate/Treat Risks: Determine the best response strategy:
  • Avoid: Change plans to eliminate the threat.
  • Mitigate: Reduce the probability or impact.
  • Transfer: Shift risk to a third party (e.g., insurance).
  • Accept: Acknowledge the risk and take no action, often for low-level risk.

I do not have the answer to this challenge we face, BUT I love life like anyone of you.

Let's be lekker

 

[Zebra]

…copied from a Hout Bay Forum, nice sentiments…

“Sad to pass a team from Cape Air Conditioning, planting a cross and watering flowers at the site where their late contracts manager, Landon La Grange, was hit by the taxi near 12 Apostles”

 

 

[Mamil]

1 hour ago, Mook said:

I have been following the "Paul Ruinaard vs Others" discourse closely. The irony is that we all are highly passionate about cycling AND life.

I have worked in a very regulated environment where safety is a non-negotiable fact of life. The info below is not my intellectual property and freely available on the www. If, for a few minutes, we take off our cycling "caps" and assess safety for what it is, these are proven strategies in any safety plan - even when cycling or driving on our roads.

Unfortunately this risk treatment strategy is also applicable when wearing a very short skirt and stiletto's down a sketchy alley known for random attacks on women. Sorry @Mamil for stealing your pun about the "not asking to be raped" example. It would be downright daft to play with a lion's nuts knowing that you could potentially die.

It is common cause that the first, and foremost, approach to risk is/should be to avoid it at all cost. Does this mean we should not ride our bikes on the open roads? Hell no, but what do you do if you cannot control the behaviour of a drunken, distracted or reckless driver coming at you from any direction?

Key Risk Management Steps

• Evaluate/Treat Risks: Determine the best response strategy:
  • Avoid: Change plans to eliminate the threat.
  • Mitigate: Reduce the probability or impact.
  • Transfer: Shift risk to a third party (e.g., insurance).
  • Accept: Acknowledge the risk and take no action, often for low-level risk.

I do not have the answer to this challenge we face, BUT I love life like anyone of you.

Let's be lekker

 

Are we at the point where tightening the boas and clipping in to the road bike is tickling the lions nuts? 

I mean ive seen some big p0×ses on tje roads but im not really a mane ou so ... 

Riding a bike is more than a hobby or a recreation for me. Its part of a lifestyle and theres a political and social stance to it as well. 

I wont stop. I have changed the pattern of my riding but i think the proper response of this loose and heterogenous group called cyclists to this crisis is to draw attention to the absurdity of a society that views the motor car in the way @Solly Moeng article describes so well. I knock off early on a friday and i ride through the school traffic to get home. No kids on bikes. They all in the cars. Its too dangerous for the kids to ride home so the parents take @Paul Ruinaard risk management strategy and say "dont ride". Its not hard to see the escalating feedback.loop that sees another yummy mummy in an overpriced SUV overtake me and cut me off.

I cant help but imagine how the stretch from grooteschuur HS, past the primary, to bishops and Rondebosch to Rustenburg Girl's and on to st georges and tje other one wjose name i cant remember and whos kids i scolded on my bike commute for smoking a zol inntje middlenof tje road and then  in tje otjer direction to sans souci, westerford and Herschel would look if even half the kids rode to school and back

Our response ought to be one of increased advocacy, more bikes, confrontation of our useless poltical leaders, writing like sollys article, op eds on daily maverick but above all, more bikes on the roads.

[The Ouzo]

7 minutes ago, Mamil said:

Are we at the point where tightening the boas and clipping in to the road bike is tickling the lions nuts? 

I mean ive seen some big p0×ses on tje roads but im not really a mane ou so ... 

Riding a bike is more than a hobby or a recreation for me. Its part of a lifestyle and theres a political and social stance to it as well. 

I wont stop. I have changed the pattern of my riding but i think the proper response of this loose and heterogenous group called cyclists to this crisis is to draw attention to the absurdity of a society that views the motor car in the way @Solly Moeng article describes so well. I knock off early on a friday and i ride through the school traffic to get home. No kids on bikes. They all in the cars. Its too dangerous for the kids to ride home so the parents take @Paul Ruinaard risk management strategy and say "dont ride". Its not hard to see the escalating feedback.loop that sees another yummy mummy in an overpriced SUV overtake me and cut me off.

I cant help but imagine how the stretch from grooteschuur HS, past the primary, to bishops and Rondebosch to Rustenburg Girl's and on to st georges and tje other one wjose name i cant remember and whos kids i scolded on my bike commute for smoking a zol inntje middlenof tje road and then  in tje otjer direction to sans souci, westerford and Herschel would look if even half the kids rode to school and back

Our response ought to be one of increased advocacy, more bikes, confrontation of our useless poltical leaders, writing like sollys article, op eds on daily maverick but above all, more bikes on the roads.

could not agree more.

my daughters previous school built a MTB track, but still no bike racks for the kids to commute, to dangerous. The current school also has no facilities for commuting by bicycle, heck, you dont even see the hordes of teenagers on motorbikes going to schools anymore.

Some of the cycling behaviour that irritates motorists is us cyclists mitigating the risks, making sure we get seen, or safely getting away/past a danger area in a way that does not align with the laws.

Hell I'm awake at 3:30am in the morning in order to get out there before the roads get to busy, swapping the risk of traffic for the risk of poor visibility.

 

Solly's article summed it up very well, getting your drivers license should not be about being able to memorise the k53, it should teach about road use, your responsibilities, your social contract when you get behind the wheel, etc. , but most importantly there needs to be a huge drive towards respect to other road users (be that fellow motorists, cyclists, pedestrians, recycling collectors etc.)

[Headshot]

A post that popped up on my FB  feed today...

This week’s awful news about a(nother) cyclist being killed by a reckless driver has sat very heavily with me — as I’m sure it has with the rest of the cycling community. 

I was out cycling the morning Landon La Grange was hit. I went through Camps Bay maybe 15 minutes before he did. 

We cycle in groups for safety. Safety in numbers against bike jackers; to be more visible to drivers and especially as women to look out for one another. 

I’ve been hit before while cycling, by a driver who did not even “see me” in daylight in Bakoven. And I was riding in the furthest possible left of the road. I did everything “right” and yet I was still hit. But I was luckier than many. 

My heart truly goes out to the La Grange family and all the friends in the @joccycles cycling group who were out riding and were surely traumatised by the event as well. 

I’ve been thinking about this all as I set out my cycling kit to ride tomorrow. But we still go out because we love the sport and the feeling of riding on the road and the community that comes with it. 

Please, let’s be kind to one another 🙏 and be safe out there this weekend. 

📸: @camrynrobin / @thirdbase___ 
Photo context: a special group ride event for International Women's Day in March, celebrating all women who ride in Cape Town with a photographer and vehicle. 

#cycling #cyclist #cycle #capetown #cyclingsafety

[Bro Derek]

I will add this.

It isn't cyclists, it isn't car drivers, it isn't taxis, it isn't motorbikes

It is people. 

Not all taxi drivers are dangerous, not all cyclists are bad, not are drivers are dangerous BUT people, in general, are unfortunately rubbish (insert swear word here)

You put enough people together in one place and it will inevitably turn sour.

Cyclists, drivers and, if you look at the comments section on social media, there too.

Othering allows groups to deflect and dehumanize other groups, but ultimately humans coupled with a socio-economic disparity, general anger and disregard and a complete lack of human to human interaction breeds this sort of wanton disdain for other humans.

Our systems are broken, the people are broken and there is no fixing it with anything mentioned. 

The police can't police sufficiently, the taxis will exist as they do because of fear, murder and force and the aunties in their activewear in their fortuners (I fear THESE the most) will continue to drive while staring at their cell phone while gesticulating at the kids without being at all cognizant of what is going on around them

I kind of agree with what Paul is saying and I also see why there is a poor reception for it.

There is a certain resignation in accepting that as long as humans exist as we exist currently, there is no fixing this